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Archiver > MAPLYMOU > 2005-01 > 1106726752


From: "Bill Churchill" <>
Subject: RE: [PLY/MA] Native American men & Plymouth women 1650-1700
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 02:05:52 -0600
In-Reply-To: <BAY5-DAV298EF1075B137E438C308DA4870@phx.gbl>


Donald,

I read your message but don't visualize exactly who the 10 males are
that tested other than they were some combination of direct male line
descendants of Rebekah (Burge) Rose's two son's Joseph & Thomas. Are
you saying that all 10 test subjects have matching Hyplotypes and ALL
are in the American Indian Haplogroup?

What is confusing is that you say "they have not been able to get back
to common ancestor with the other five that we have written records
for." This sounds like none of the 5 Hyplotypes match?

Or the first 5 match and the other 5 don't match as being related, i.e.
they have more than 4 mutations.

I take it the number of mutations is in the ball park for Edward Rose
being the Common ancestor? By that I mean you have only 1 or 2 mutated
markers between Haplotypes? That is the common ancestor is removed 10
or so generations.

How many markers were tested? Who is your testing company?

Setting Hyplotypes aside, if the Hyplogroup is American Indian for
everyone tested, then either Edward Rose was an American Indian or you
have undocumented events in which:

1) Both sons are adopted (and they were both American Indians) or

2) Edward Rose was not the birth father.

In saying this I should mention that all Surname groups have what are
euphemistically called “undocumented events.” Undocumented events create
different blood lines within any Surname group. Undocumented events
consist of unrecorded adoptions and cases where the father was not, in
reality, who he was supposed to be. Thus, in any surname group, one has
bonified lines that are of the Surname but not of the same blood. One
of the values of Y-DNA study is that one can identify lines that are
separated from the original blood line. These different blood lines
should be carefully documented because they allow individuals who are
looking for their roots without a paper trail to identify their
particular family line within a Surname group.

Can you send a copy of the Hyplotypes?

Bill Churchill
Project Administrator
Churchill Y-DNA Genesis Project


-----Original Message-----
From: Donald HUGHES [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:26 PM
To:
Subject: [PLY/MA] Native American men & Plymouth women 1650-1700

Perhaps this is the time to bring my problem to the list. In Rochester
MA ca 1692, Edward Rose married Rebekah Burge daughter of Joseph Burge &
Patience Freeman. Patience was the daughter of Edmound Freeman and
Rebecca Prence. Rebecca Prence was the daughter of Patience Brewster &
Thomas Pence. Patience was daughter of William. This is my Mayflower
line (only one at this point).

Edward & Rebecca Rose had sons Joseph & Thomas, among other children.
Now DNA has been done on four proven descendants of son Joseph and one
from son Thomas. Along with these 5 we also have 5 other Roses with very
close DNA (we know that we are closely related, but they have not been
able to get back to common ancestor with the other five that we have
written records for.

Now the problem. The male only DNA shows the male ancestor is Native
American on the 10. All children of Edward & Rebecca are registered in
Rochester records. Nothing is strange in the listings. Edward was in
Rochester about 1693, having come from Marshfield. Edward Rose was son
of Joseph Rose & Elizabeth Bumpus, daughter of Edward Bumpus who came on
the Lyon. Only the oldest children of Edward were registered in
Marshfield, but all are mentioned in deed dated 1692 in Marshfield.

We do not know of Joseph before 1653 when he married Elizabeth Bumpus.
There are references to other Roses in Marshfield & Plymouth History ,
but cannot make proven connections. Joseph was granted land in
Marshfield and later he and wife came under town care. Seems that his
son Joseph and grandson Joshua's families also came under town care. Why
the town took responsibility for them, I don't know except that I
believe that they were soldiers for the town. I find mention of a Joseph
Rose in ME 1699 and Joshua Rose is mentioned several times as being in
service in ME region.

At least Edward would be Native American if not Joseph or maybe even his
father. We are only certain of male line being Native American. How
would the child of a married English women by a Native American be dealt
with by the New England society? Would the husband accept the boy child
as his? I can find nothing on this. Did the Plymouth settlers give last
names to Native Americans and take them into their towns with full
acceptance? I find that difficult to believe.

Can anyone direct me to references on this subject. We put Edward's
birthdate as 1662-1664. He died 1740 in Bolton CT where he was original
settler with home-lot grant of 125 acres. Thank you all.


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