Archiver > MAYFLOWER > 2003-12 > 1070594498

From: "Richard" <>
Subject: Re: [MFLR] Francis Cooke - James Reed 1716
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:21:38 -0800

Hi Christie,

Well, I can't ignore any message that involves Tirrels, Whitmarshes
and Reeds (not to mention Fords and Pools, etc) - and especially
when it intersects my own Cooke lines! [As an aside, I'll add that
I'm founder and List Admin of RootsWeb's WHITMARSH and TERRILL lists
(and some variants) - and am always ready to welcome new subscribers]

In the following, I've addressed several of your statements and/or
questions - but out of the order in which you presented them...

First, you stated:
In an NEHGS article entitled the "Descendants of Andrew Ford
of Weymouth, Mass." it states that Ruth Ford was married twice.
The first to Joseph Poole and the second to James Reed.

There's no problem here. The Cooke Silver Book by Ralph Wood (cited
hereafter as "Wood") states (Wood 570):
935. James^5 Reed (John^4 Reed, Esther^3 Tomson, Mary^2 Cooke,
Francis^1) was born in Abington 12 October 1716, died in
Abington before 5 November 1753, when letters on his estate
were granted to Samuel Pool Jr.

James married in Abington 30 August 1741 Ruth (Ford) Pool, born
in Abington 3 May 1716, died in Abington 9 January 1791, aged
75 years, daughter of Hezekiah and Ruth (Whitmarsh) Ford. Ruth
Ford married (1) in Abington 27 November 1735 Joseph Pool. ...
Ruth (Ford) (Pool) (Reed) married (3) in Bridgewater 31 May 1764
Samuel Porter, born about 1727 [calculated from age at death],
died in Bridgewater 5 October 1811, aged 84 years.

It's true that there are some points of conflict between the children
of James and Ruth Reed as reported by the Ford Genealogy (originally
published as a series of article in NEHGR, but later published in
book form with some corrections and additions), the Reed Genealogy
of 1901 and Wood. [NOTE: Sutro Library in San Francisco has the
published version of the Ford Genealogy and both of the principal REED
genealogies (both of which contain significant errors, unfortunately).]

Genealogically, there are probably no really significant issues with
regard to these differences as most relate to children that died young.
Nevertheless, here's what the Abington VRs have to say about the
children of James and Ruth:

REED, Hezekiah, s. James Jr., bp. Feb. 26, 1743-4. C.R.1.
Hezekiah, s. James and Ruth, Feb. 23, 1744-5.

This suggests an earlier Hezekiah who died young - unless one of the
years (either baptism or birth) is misreported in the Abington VRs.
Both Wood and the Ford Genealogy report only one Hezekiah, however -
and I suspect that the church record simply has misreported the year.

Returning to the Abington Birth VRs, we find:
REED, James, s. James [Jr., C.R.1.] and Ruth, Aug. 4, 1742.

This conflicts sharply with Wood's report of
REED, Joseph, born 9 August 1742; died young.

Indeed, no such Joseph is recorded in the Abington Birth VRs (and Wood
reports no "James" as a child of James and Ruth); therefore, I must
conclude that Wood erred in the identification of the "Joseph" he
reports as the firstborn child of James and Ruth. I would note
further, however, that there is no Abington Death VR for either James
or Joseph.

Returning to the Abington Birth VRs, we find:
REED, Jeremiah, s. James Sr., bp. Oct. 6, 1745. C.R.1.
REED, Jeremiah, s. James [Jr., C.R.1.] and Ruth, Oct. 4, 1746.
REED, Jeremiah, s. James and Ruth, Apr. 11, 1747.
And the Abington Death VRs report:
REED, Jeremiah, s. James and Ruth, Dec. 11, 1747.

There's some real dissonance between these records!
a) Who is the Jeremiah Reed bp. on Oct. 6, 1745 (whose father was
called James Sr.)? Might the year reported for either the birth
on Oct. 4, 1746 or the baptism reported on Oct. 6, 1745 be
incorrect? [I'm tempted to suspect, again, that the year reported
in the church record is in error, just as appears to be the case
with the baptism of Hezekiah.] Even so, there's the Jr./Sr.
conflict in designating the father.
b) Wood reports the birth of the Jeremiah born on Oct. 4, 1746, but
makes no mention of the Jeremiah born on Apr. 11, 1747 (or the
one who died on Dec. 11, 1747).
c) The Ford Genealogy (NEHGR) reports the births of both Jeremiahs
(and, from the Abington VRs, there were surely two):
3. Jeremiah, b. 4 Oct 1746; d. 11 Dec 1747.
4. Jeremiah, b. 11 April 1747; m. Sarah Tirrell
but ignores the dissonance of the older Jeremiah having died
in December 1747, yet the birth of the younger Jeremiah supposedly
having occurred eight months earlier in April 1747! In any event,
we know that at least one Jeremiah, son of James and Ruth,
survived, because he is named in the division of his deceased
father's real estate in 1765.

In situations of this sort, one naturally suspects that there might
have been more than one James and Ruth Reed in Abington at the time
(i.e. the mid-1740s), but there is no Abington Marriage VR to support
such a theory [of course, the mere absence of such a marriage record
cannot be taken as positive proof that there wasn't another James and
Ruth Reed in Abington at the time...]. If there were another James
and Ruth Reed in Abington at this time, however, one would expect to
find other birth records that would be in some conflict - either as
to dates or names - and there aren't any (only the Jeremiahs are in

Returning to the Abington Birth VRs, we find:
REED, Olive, d. James and Ruth, Feb. 2, 1748-9. [Olave, d. -----
Jr., C.R.1.]
Wood and the Ford Genealogy agree on the identification of Olive as
a daughter of James and Ruth - no conflict there.

Finally, Wood reports two additional children for James and Ruth Reed:
Naomi and Joseph, both minors on 4 March 1765 when letters of guardian-
ship were issued naming them. The Ford Genealogy recognizes the
existence of Naomi, but makes no mention of Joseph. As their father,
James Reed, had died in Abington before 5 November 1753, both Naomi
and Joseph must have been born before the summer of 1754 (i.e. allowing
for the possibility of Ruth having been pregnant with one of them at
the decease of James).

The widow, Ruth (Ford) (Poole) Reed married (3) Samuel Porter of
Bridgewater [here, it should be recognized that Bridgewater was the
parent town of Abington, and earlier generations of the Reeds of
Abington were of Bridgewater - and Weymouth before that...]

Turning now to the Bridgewater Marriage VRs, we find the record of
Ruth's 3rd marriage:
REED, Ruth [int. wid.] and Sam[ue]ll [int. Samuel] Porter, May 31,
1764. [Read and Samuel Porter, P.C.E.]
and the marriages of two of the children of James and Ruth:
REED, Hesekiah, [int. Hezekiah Read] and Deborah Tirrell [int.
Terril] of Abington, Aug. 21, 1766, in Abington.
REED, Naomi [int. Naomie], and Obadiah Hearsey [dup. Hearsy]
of Abington, Apr. 17, 1777.
There is no marriage VR in either Bridgewater or Abington for the
marriage of Jeremiah Reed and Sarah Tirrill, but their marriage is
reported (inferred), but with no date, in the Tirrell/Tirrill Genealogy
[p. 54], citing a Reed Genealogy.

The preceding is all derived from REED records I have at hand (the
larger REED family is of considerable interest to me as I have at
least six lines of descent from the immigrant, William REED, and
his wife Avis [I've seen various attributions for her surname, but
never a scrap of real evidence to support such identifications -
I include in this category Wood's undocumented assertion that she
was Avis "Chapman"].

Unfortunately, the Abington VRs are in some conflict with each other
as regards the children of "James and Ruth Reed" and this, in turn,
has led to conflicting interpretations of those VRs. We do know that
sons Hezekiah, Jeremiah and Joseph and daughter Naomi were all living
on 28 October 1765 at the division of the real estate of their deceased

It has taken a rather long message just to address the confusion
surrounding the children of James and Ruth Reed of Abington. There-
fore, I'll deal with other issues you raised (such as the parentage
of James Reed - especially the identity of his mother) in a subsequent

Richard Irwin

-----Original Message-----
From: <>
To: <>
Date: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:47 PM
Subject: [MFLR] Francis Cooke - James Reed 1716

Question to the list: There was a recent posting by a new member which
indicates that her line was accepted because she was able to prove that
Mary Reed did not marry John Dyer but a John Martin.

Using her line of descent to see if I have followed that particular line
I have discovered a discrepancy in my own database regarding Mary's
brother James Reed who was born 1716. I also have another problem with
the children of Ruth Ford and James Reed.

In an NEHGS article entitled the "Descendants of Andrew Ford of Weymouth,
Mass." it states that Ruth Ford was married twice. The first to Joseph
Poole and the second to James Reed. In this article it gives his parents
names to be John and Mary (Whitmarsh) Reed.

For the children with the surname of Reed it provides only this information
and does not caarry the line any further.

1. Joseph, b. 9 Aug 1742; d. unm.
2. Hezekiah, b. 23 Feb 1744/5; m. Deborah Tirrell
3. Jeremiah, b. 4 Oct 1746; d. 11 Dec 1747.
4. Jeremiah, b. 11 April 1747; m. Sarah Tirrell
5. Olive, b. 2 Feb 1748/9; probably died young.
6. Naomi, b. in 1751; m. Obadiah Hersey

To compare this data with Vol. 12 of the Mayflower books it says that
James' mother was Mary Wheeler and given that the Mayflower accepts
this surname rather than Whitmarsh I have adjusted my records
accordingly since I have not attempted to trace the Mary Whitmarsh
through the VRs or the Weymouth Genealogies, nor have I had a chance
to check out the Abington VR which is apparently where the Mayflower
Society has found the record of Mary Wheeler to James.

However, despite that, I find a difference of opinion regarding the
names of the children as cited above to that of Vol. 12. Vol. 12
cites these children:

1. Joseph, b. 9 Aug 1742; died young - makes reference to a Reed
Genealogy (1901)
2. Hezekiah, b. 23 Feb 1744/5, married Deborah Tirrell.
3. Jeremiah, b. 4 Oct 1746
4. Olive, b. 2 Feb. 1748/9; not named in 1765 guardianship or 1765
5. Joseph, b. aft 4 March 1744; named in 165 division
6. Naomi; a minor on 4 March 1765.

As you can see, in the one list there are two Jeremiahs, one dying young
and the second one getting married. Vol. 12 only lists the one born in
1746 but doesn't carry the line any further in the volume. The marriage
should be to Sarah Tirrell. Vol. 12 lists two Joseph's instead of one.

Any help in straightening this out would be appreciated. I'd like to
have my records as accurate and complete as possible. I'm presuming
that perhaps Vol. 12 is the more recent data on this family, but would
like to hear from others to make sure so that I don't blow it.

Christie Trapp

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