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Archiver > MONMOUTHSHIRE > 2008-02 > 1202657801


From: "Hugh Watkins" <>
Subject: Re: [MON] Abergavenny Removal Order DUNFORD and PHILLIPS
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:36:41 +0100
References: <cea.290fd1b1.34e0462b@aol.com><!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFdJDzfJ29FLhu6FrN1WMgbCgAAAEAAAAF3ffwuulLdLhL0MhS9xhLQBAAAAAA==@monnow13.demon.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAFdJDzfJ29FLhu6FrN1WMgbCgAAAEAAAAF3ffwuulLdLhL0MhS9xhLQBAAAAAA==@monnow13.demon.co.uk>


parish relief with or without a removal order was the equivalent of
social security today

people who could not earn a living became the responsibility of the
parish they were living in

BUT

>> Removal Orders:

If you were not granted a Settlement Certificate, one of two things
could happen. You might be allowed to stay in the parish if your
original parish ("parish of settlement") agreed to pay a fee, usually
quarterly, to sustain you in your new parish. If not, you would
receive a Removal Order, sometimes accompanied by a written pass to
the parish of settlement showing the route to be taken. This would
apply even within a city or town which consisted of more than one
parish. Your parish of settlement was obliged to take you back.

Removal Orders would often take a person or a family back to a place
of settlement miles across the country, sometimes to a parish they had
only known briefly as a small child. It was not uncommon for a husband
and wife to have their children taken from them, each being removed to
separate scattered parishes.

Children under seven were rarely removed to a different place from
their natural parents as they would have had to gain a settlement of
their own to be removed somewhere other than their father's place of
settlement. I
llegitimate babies and children could be removed away from their
mothers in the 18th century if the child was not born in the mother's
place of settlement (the settlement of illegitimate children was their
place of birth) - but not always.
Sometimes an agreement was made between the overseers of the child's
place of settlement and the overseers of the parish where it was
living so that it could be maintained by the former whilst living in
the latter.
Children whose mother had remarried a man with a different place of
settlement from their father could be removed away from their mother
as they would retain their father's settlement, but again agreements
could be made between parishes as with illegitimate children above.

In 1732/3 an Act prevented the removal of pregnant women and women
within the first month of giving birth. After 1834, the Union
Workhouse (covering a group of parishes) came into being, but removal
to the "appropriate" Workhouse continued.

The law appears to have changed in 1846. Instead of the parish of
settlement paying for out relief, the length of residence in a
particular parish was the new criteria. [Anne Cole - 26 Mar 2004]

Settle Certificates and Removal Orders are a valuable source for the
family historian because they often list the entire family and the
names of both parishes.
<<
and lots more
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/poorsettlement.html

Hugh W

On 10/02/2008, monnow13 <> wrote:
> Hello,
> Unfortunately I know next to nothing about Susannah, I have her marriage in
> Lewes in 1797 and baptisms of two children in Lewes in 1801 and 1803. No
> trace in the 1841 census of her or husband Richard. I have been through
> Lewes marriages and there is nothing to suggest she had married previous to
> Richard so my guess is she was early 20s in 1897 which would have made her
> early 30s in 1806. There are baptisms in Lewes to a John and Ann Dunford in
> the 1770s so they could have been her parents. A John Dunford was buried in
> 1802 which would fit with widowed mother having moved with daughter and son
> in law to Monmouthshire. Maybe they couldn't afford to support her so she
> was sent back to Lewes.
>
> Why would Susannah have been examined - I assume that means questioned by
> the parish - maybe she alleged she could support her mother but the parish
> overseers weren't so sure - or the other way around, she couldn't/wouldn't
> support her and wanted her sent back!
>
> This couple have been a brick wall for 10 years so finding any reference
> after all this time is exciting. All I have to do now is trawl all of
> Monmouthshire for burial records I had expected to find in Lewes!
> Regards,
> Molly
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> Sent: 10 February 2008 12:21
> To:
> Subject: Re: [MON] Abergavenny Removal Order DUNFORD and PHILLIPS
>
> Hello,
> Not knowing the age, she could have been her daughter before her marriage
> to
> Phillips, and the new husband would not accept her.
> How old was Susannah and had she been married before.
> Regards Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
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