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Archiver > Mariners > 2004-04 > 1081064766


From: <>
Subject: Re: [Mar] Naval Query
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 08:47:13 +0100
References: <001101c419bd$82c57af0$71d62b50@DB52SK0J> <vvbu609squi0f9h7feg453bttbbr8tre8b@4ax.com> <000d01c41a0f$4d9cf4a0$11b62d50@DB52SK0J> <4jdv605p3mm2r1rudsqam17nhg3rpgt5m6@4ax.com>


Hi Paul
Thanks again for your response.
I should have said that Harry is standing, first left, and the photo was
taken in Peterhead, Scotland, according to the embossing in the bottom l/h
corner, have not managed to find dates for the photographer as yet, nor do I
have names for the others in the photo.
Will have to get back to Kew this week, if I can get time off work, and
follow up your suggestions.

Cheers
Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Benyon" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Mar] Naval Query


> Hi Steve
>
> The one sat down looks very much as though he's a Petty Officer (PO) -
> see left arm- and has served sufficient time to have been awarded 3
> Good Conduct Badges (GCBs) - probably about 9 - 12 years - which makes
> him about 27-30, or older, depending on the qualification period for
> GCBs, which varied between 3 and 4 years for each, depending on the
> dates - I believe they reduced the qualifying period from 4 to 3 years
> as a recruitment incentive. Can't see any badges for the other two,
> but they also appear to be of a similar vintage. Date of commencing
> qualifying time for GCB would either be 18th birthday or later if he
> joined after he was 18. Difficult to tell if he's a 1st or 2nd Class
> PO. But most certainly "well past their sell by date" for being
> Ordinary seamen and very much in the Able category or greater ;-)
>
> A petty he appears to be wearing red badges - almost impossible to
> make out the Specialist Qualification on the right arm.
>
> I would agree that all three should appear somewhere within ADM188.
>
> If your Harry served during WWI have you tried looking in the medal
> rolls ADM 171/94-119 - might give you his service number - another
> possible thought if he joined younger than he should have done - could
> he have signed-on using his mother's maiden name - wouldn't be the
> first time ?
>
> Regards
>
> Paul
>
> On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 07:37:25 +0100, <> wrote:
>
> >Hi Paul
> >Many thanks for your response.
> >Yesterday I searched ADM188/1137 & 1160 the series for ratings, but did
not
> >find my grandfather Harry Duffin (born 1889, Hull, Yorks)
> >I know he was still living at home on the 1901 census.
> >Another lister had previously checked the Navy List for 1905/14/18/20 but
> >did not find a listing for him as an officer.
> >I have a pic of him in Naval uniform, which can be viewed on my website
> >http://www.stevejgarton.co.uk/ using the link on the home page. This pic
to
> >me shows him in an "ordinary" ? seamans uniform, can someone please
> >confirm/contradict ? In which case I should have found him in ADM188
should
> >I not ?
> >
> >Any help would be most appreciated.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Steve Garton
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Paul Benyon" <>
> >To: <>
> >Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 11:13 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Mar] Naval Query
> >
> >
> >> Hi Steve
> >>
> >> By this time ie the start of the 20th Century, the age limit on entry
> >> would probably have been 14 for ratings, or at least it was supposed
> >> to be - although officer cadets could still enter at 13 as they were
> >> considered still to be receiving full time education - by the time of
> >> the Great War the minimum age for ratings had increased to 15ΒΌ, but as
> >> you say many lads exacerbated their ages to obtain entry and since the
> >> RM recruiting sergeants appear to have received a small bonus for each
> >> recruit they would appear to have totally ignored the rules which
> >> required parents' or guardians' approval and proof of age, as long as
> >> the boy was thought to be mentally and physically suitable for the
> >> service.
> >>
> >> If he served at some time as an officer your starting point should
> >> probably the Navy Lists, published quarterly in peace time ; with
> >> those published during the Great War, originally classified, now
> >> available on open shelves I believe ?
> >>
> >> In addition to the RN Minesweepers there were many hundreds of
> >> trawlers assigned to this work, many of which continued their work,
> >> and suffered further casualties long after the end of the war
> >>
> >> Since the variables are so great, especially when a major conflict is
> >> in progress, I should be reluctant to even guess how quickly a rating
> >> could attain the rank of Lt Cdr. But that said there was recently a
> >> thread on the list regarding an apparent former lower decker who was
> >> promoted through the Mate system who was the equivalent of a
> >> Lieutenant by the time of Jutland in 1916, which is about as close as
> >> I would dare go ! But there are so many variables in these
> >> circumstances - with acting ranks being handed out on a temporary
> >> basis in some circumstances - with some being confirmed and others
> >> not.
> >>
> >> But as I always say in these circumstances - why not include a name!!!
> >> someone on the list might have a tid-bit on this person which might
> >> start your ball rolling..
> >>
> >> You are probably aware of them, but in case not there are a number of
> >> useful PRO leaflets for RN researchers at:
> >>
> >> http://www.pro.gov.uk/leaflets/Riindex.htm#R
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 21:51:56 +0100, <> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I have had a frustrating day at Kew trying to track down the naval
> >service
> >> >record of my grandfather. Some of the frustration resulted from
leaving
> >> >some vital information at home and having to second guess on dates
etc,
> >not
> >> >a good idea.
> >> >
> >> >I have info from an aunt that (A) he served in the Royal Navy as a
> >> >Lieutenant Commander, (B) he served on a minesweeper in WW1 and (C) he
> >ran
> >> >away from home to join the Navy and lied about his age to enlist.
> >> >
> >> >I have the following questions which will hopefully help me for my
next
> >> >visit to the PRO:
> >> >1 He was born in 1889, at that time what was the entry age limit ?
> >> >2 If he did run away to join the force presumably joining as a rating,
> >what
> >> >would be the likely timescale for him to have risen to the post of
> >> >Lieutenant Commander ?
> >> >3 If he served on a minesweeper would that necessarily have been a
Royal
> >> >Naval vessel, could it have been a seconded trawler ?
> >> >
> >> >Hoping someone can help.
> >> >
> >> >Cheers
> >> >Steve Garton
> >> >
> >> >
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