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Archiver > Melungeon > 2011-06 > 1309035685


From:
Subject: Re: [MELUNGEON] Melungeon Indians
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 17:01:25 -0400
References: <8CE0143FF7FE43D-1FD0-CB44@webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com><BANLkTimf6GdaUH4hnU_Ep8hhkuJ+OCqpLg@mail.gmail.com><2D5D72E5ADBE4B518381B6472A7286A0@Jack>
In-Reply-To: <2D5D72E5ADBE4B518381B6472A7286A0@Jack>


Example; When we, you, Penny, my wife and I went on that research trip to
Goinstown and to that library on the Henry/Patrick County Border I found and
made a copy of the 1813-14 free Negro tax list of Henry County Virginia
which Included my ggg Grandmother Elizabeth Going and her son John Going Jr.
so the free colored and free man
of color designation for sons John Jr., Zachariah and Zephaniah may have
come from their mother rather than the proven Haplogroup E1b1a of John
Going Sr. Jack


For the record the Henry County list that Jack mentions is NOT a 'free Negro tax list' but is in fact 'free Negro AND MULATTO -- Indians were called mulatto in Virginia --




Joanne Pezzullo

Historical Melungeon Indians
http://www.historical-melungeons.com/index.html



-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Goins <>
To:
Sent: Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:34 am
Subject: Re: [MELUNGEON] Melungeon Indians


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>

Writes;

> Bottom line is DNA proves NOTHING. The E haplogroup only proves African
> DNA back some 3000 years and nothing else.

Joanne sometimes a little research will show how your above statement is
really bottom line. You want everybody to assume the Male E had no Female E,
The question is not the 3000 years the E1b1a haplogroup spread or when the
Haplogroup began, but the facts are where there is a male E, there is most
likely a female E companion.
Example; When we, you, Penny, my wife and I went on that research trip to
Goinstown and to that library on the Henry/Patrick County Border I found and
made a copy of the 1813-14 free Negro tax list of Henry County Virginia
which Included my ggg Grandmother Elizabeth Going and her son John Going Jr.
so the free colored and free man
of color designation for sons John Jr., Zachariah and Zephaniah may have
come from their mother rather than the proven Haplogroup E1b1a of John
Going Sr. Jack





> Yet you yourself have represented the Melungeons as having African DNA.
> Where is the genealogy to go with this? You want absolute proof the
> Melungeons were Indians but accept they were African because of 3000 year
> old DNA - which you cannot say where the DNA was for 3000 years?
>>
>>
>> ? Where are freedom papers, manumissions, etc., proving any Melungeon
>> family had African ancestors? Therefore the DNA is a big zero, alone it
>> cannot prove anything. Look at the research by ethnologists,
>> anthropologists, historians, etc... those records show they had Indian
>> ancestry, specifically related to the "Craotan", "Cherokee of Robeson
>> County" , "Lumbee" , or whatever you want to call them.
>>
>>
>> If anything the DNA proves exactly what they said in 1848 -- they were
>> Portuguese who mixed with whites and Africans AFTER they went to
>> Tennessee. Again in 1890 it is exactly what Dromgoole wrote and a few
>> years later it was told again by Humble.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Joanne Pezzullo
>>
>> Historical Melungeon Indians
>> http://www.historical-melungeons.com/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Janet Crain <>
>> To:
>> Sent: Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:26 am
>> Subject: Re: [MELUNGEON] Melungeon Indians
>>
>>
>> Joanne; There is a lot of confusion muddying the waters here. You cannot
>> say; "Melungeon descendants are showing a lot of 'Indian DNA' which is
>> represented by several Eurpean and African haplogroups because Europeans
>> and Africans are known to have lived with the Indians from 1520 on."
>>
>> This would not be accepted as a scientific conclusion by any
>> professional.
>> Yet it seems to be what you are saying.
>>
>> You could make the statement that "Melungeon descendants have been shown
>> to
>> be carrying several European and African haplogroups. To date very few
>> Native American haplogroups have been found." This is a fact. And I see
>> no
>> way this is an injustice to anyone.
>>
>> No one is implying Melungeon descendants have no Indian DNA. But simply
>> that
>> very little of the Y and mtDNA seen so far has been Native American. You
>> know people have a lot of ancestors other than their Y and mtDNA
>> ancestors.
>> Haplogroups offer information on only a tiny percentage of the total
>> ancestry. But there's a reason for using haplogroups. When scientists
>> speak
>> of haplogroups as being Asian, European, African or Native American they
>> are
>> speaking in broad terms of where these people lived in isolation for
>> many,
>> many thousands of years before they began migrating and mixing together.
>> A
>> haplogroup takes more than 400 years to evolve.
>>
>> Most people in America today are a mixture of the DNA of several formerly
>> isolated groups. So it would be very difficult to test a Melungeon
>> descendant for their autosomal DNA and prove anything. Autosomal is the
>> DNA
>> from all ancestors and is mixed, shuffled and reshuffled with each
>> transmission. But any findings from a modern day person is going to
>> be representational of several non-Melungeon ancestors also. And no one
>> could say which one contributed what.
>>
>> So you are left with the Y and mtDNA which come down virtually unchanged.
>> The Y in a straight paternal line and mtDNA in a straight maternal line.
>> Imperfect tools, but the best geneticists have and probably ever will
>> have
>> due to the previously cited reasons.
>>
>> Janet Crain
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 6:41 AM, <> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> It is not a leap to say there was absolutely contact and mixture from as
>>> early as 1520s with Spaniards, Portuguese, Africans, etc., with the
>>> Native
>>> Tribes - and that mixing resulted in 'Mixed Indians Tribes' -- meaning
>>> those
>>> Indian Tribes as early as the 1520s were carrying European and African
>>> DNA.
>>> To imply the Melungeons have no "Indian DNA" because there are no Q's
>>> is
>>> a
>>> gross injustice to the Melungeon descendants.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



these people lived in isolation for many,
> many thousands of years before they began migrating and mixing together. A
> haplogroup takes more than 400 years to evolve.
>
> Most people in America today are a mixture of the DNA of several formerly
> isolated groups. So it would be very difficult to test a Melungeon
> descendant for their autosomal DNA and prove anything. Autosomal is the
> DNA
> from all ancestors and is mixed, shuffled and reshuffled with each
> transmission. But any findings from a modern day person is going to
> be representational of several non-Melungeon ancestors also. And no one
> could say which one contributed what.
>
> So you are left with the Y and mtDNA which come down virtually unchanged.
> The Y in a straight paternal line and mtDNA in a straight maternal line.
> Imperfect tools, but the best geneticists have and probably ever will have
> due to the previously cited reasons.
>
> Janet Crain
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 6:41 AM, <> wrote:
>
>>
>> It is not a leap to say there was absolutely contact and mixture from as
>> early as 1520s with Spaniards, Portuguese, Africans, etc., with the
>> Native
>> Tribes - and that mixing resulted in 'Mixed Indians Tribes' -- meaning
>> those
>> Indian Tribes as early as the 1520s were carrying European and African
>> DNA.
>> To imply the Melungeons have no "Indian DNA" because there are no Q's is
>> a
>> gross injustice to the Melungeon descendants.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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