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Archiver > PAF-5-USERS > 2006-05 > 1148819232


From: John Waugh <>
Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Name Order - Surname First, Suffixes
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 08:27:12 -0400
References: <380-22006552693014828@earthlink.net><4478563D.9070908@infowest.com><003a01c6819b$1f9350e0$0a53059a@bc.hsia.telus.net><000a01c6819d$c1eb26e0$0a53059a@bc.hsia.telus.net>
In-Reply-To: <000a01c6819d$c1eb26e0$0a53059a@bc.hsia.telus.net>


John, and all....


Regarding the usage of surname suffixes such as Jr, III, IV....these are all perfectly valid and LEGALLY part of many names. My own for example.

My legal name is John Waugh JR, and it so states that on my birth certificate, and I must use that when signing government or other legal documents.

As for the these suffixes "changing" throughout one's life...that's complete hogwash. No person's legal name EVER changes, because of the use of suffixes, any more than his name would change just because he was known by the nickname Dopey!

A man may be born and named, and his birth certificate show: John Doe, and then later he father a son, and name his son after himself, and use the same full name but with JR amended. After that event, the man, John Doe the father, may then refer to himself and conventionally be known by the suffix, Sr., as John Doe, SR, however his legal name is still simply John Doe. Whereas, his son's legal name IS John Doe JR. And for the rest of his life, the son's name, his legal name, will remain John Doe Jr. unless he intentionally changes his name, just as anyone else may legally and intentionally change their name. But that son, JR, will never become a SR, even if he later names his own son John Doe III... and so forth.

The comparison to the usage of titles, such as Rev., etc, is inappropriate. No one is "named" with a title of that nature, but many men are named in honor of their father, grandfather, uncle, and so forth, and for these cases, the suffixes are not mere conventions, but actually a part of the legal name. It is only the suffix SR, which would most likely not be a part of the legal name and thus could be comparable to a title.

Incidentally, while people can name their children anything they want, and in modern times have saddled their children with some truly bizarre names and spellings, assuming the same full and complete name, a man's own son will be a JR. Then Jr's son will be the III, etc. But a man's grandson, given the same full name, (and if that grandson is the first to be named after his grandfather) would be the II, not JR. And once the naming has entered the numeric suffixes, there is no implication, or requirement that these men be in a direct line. A man named after his Uncle, would be a II, and his brother's son similarly named, would be the III, and so forth. The only implication made is that the III, was born after the JR, or the II, etc. So there is an implication of a chronology of birth of these same named men. To rephrase this, while a JR, IS named after his Father, a II, or III is not necessarily named after his father. I as a JR, naming my son a III, am in fact naming him a!
fter MY own father, and not after myself, and so if I had no sons, or choose not to use the name, my brother instead could name his son after our father, and his son would then have the numeric suffix of II, if there was no JR, or III as in my case.

John, if your original comment referred only to more ancient genealogy, then it is true that the customs, and the legality, may be quite different and so in those cases, genealogists may be using these suffixes only for their own convenience and if so, then in that case they would be meaningless genealogically, other than as any other personal database identification numbering system.

To answer Lorin's question, I don't know who to get the program to sort correctly if you are entering /Surname/ Suffix First Middle but I would suggest a well placed comma and see how that works. In my PAF database, when it is part of the name, I use the format "First Middle /Surname/ Suffix", and PAF does sort correctly, on the surname.


John Waugh JR
Portland, Maine, USA





At 10:56 05 27 2006, john burns wrote:
QUOTE:
snip
I can never understand why people use suffixes like junior or VI as they are
meaningless genealogically and some change as the person ages. Likewise why
would people use prefixes like Dr. or Rev. None of these are on birth
certificates and shouldn't be on marriage or death certificates or census.
It seems to me that all those type of things should be in the notes.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "john burns" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Name Order - Surname First, Suffixes

> What a silly thing to use-Jr.
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lorin Lund" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 6:38 AM
> Subject: [PAF-5] Name Order - Surname First, Suffixes
>
> > Does anyone know how to get PAF to recognize suffixes (like Jr.)
> > when you have Surname First?
> >
> > When I enter
> >
> > /DOE/ John Jr.
> >
> > It just treats John Jr. as the given name. Likewise with
> > /DOE/ John, Jr.
> >
> > In either case a GEDCOM export has no NSFX tag.
> >
>
END-QUOTED.



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