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Subject: a medieval puzzle - the razing of Hay Castle in 1216
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 05:38:36 EST

Listers are invited to help solve a puzzle set in Hay-on-Wye in 1216

On the wall of my study I have a delightful print of "The North View of Hay
Castle in the County of Brecknock" , which bears the legend:-
Haia y Gelli or ye Hay was destroyed AD 1216 by Louis Dauphin of France who
in ye Reign of K. John was Invited into England by ye Barons. It has been in
ye Possession of ye Boyles, afterwards of ye Gwynnes and now belongs to Rich.
Wellington Gent.
Saml. and Nathl. Buck delin. et sculpt. Published according to Act of
Parliament March 25 1741

On reflection, it seems extremely unlikely that the Dauphin would so have
stretched his supply lines as to venture as far west as Hay - his forces
controlled the Tower of London and Winchester but Dover and Windsor were in
John's hands, and after John's death the coronation of his young son was held
at Gloucester, which must therefore have been "loyal".

Gwenwynwyn of Powys was in alliance with King John against Llewelyn ap
Iowerth of Gwynedd, which led the latter to attack Powys. - so on the
principle that my enemy's enemy is my friend - could an attack by Llewellyn
have been "rebranded" as an attack by the Dauphin.?

.....................................................................

Geoffrey L Fairs tells a very different story in his History of The Hay,
attributed to T. Jones Brut y Twysogyon Peniarth MS20 Version Univ of Wales
Board of Celtic Studies (History of Law Series) 1952:-

He (Giles de Breos Bishop of Hereford, whose family had inherited Hay in 1175)
and his younger brother Reginald had no love for the king (their mother and
elder brother having been starved to death at Windsor by King John) and
joined the barons in their struggle.

Together they marched on Brecon, Giles with the aid of the Welsh having on
the way taken Colwyn, Builth, Painscastle, Hay and Blaenllynfi without
resistance. The king in his current difficulties found it expedient to
sanction these seizures and accept the submission of Giles in 1215 on payment
of a fine.

Reginald also yielded his submission to secure the estates after the death
of Giles in 1215 but then sided with the barons and Llewelyn ap Iowerth.
Llewelyn was closely connected by the marriage of his two daughters Gwladus
and Margaret with the de Breos family and his intrigues with them formed part
of his plan for the unification of Wales.

The de Breos family of course was only concerned with their own interests and
changed sides as often as seemed expedient.

King John's efforts at Hereford to regain Reginald's allegiance were
unsuccessful so 'he made for Radnor and Hay and laid siege to them and
overthrew the castles to the ground.'

...................................................
Two very different versions attributing the razing of Hay Castle to two
opposing camps.

Any comment from Listers?

My Hunch is that the reference to Lewis, the Dauphin of France (Louis Capet)
was a eighteenth century spin in the tradition of the Estate Agents blurb -
or was an example of Europhobic distortion ........................... Or
was there some substance in it?

regards

edward hope

with apologies to those who would regard this as "off subject"

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