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From: judy olsen <>
Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HELP - RUTHERFORD
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:34:09 +0000
References: <002001c729cd$aae1d5b0$020ba8c0@Anne><013301c729d8$8859f4e0$0200a8c0@dell8400><004001c72a00$235f1930$020ba8c0@Anne>
In-Reply-To: <004001c72a00$235f1930$020ba8c0@Anne>


I would say it is too soon to assume that William Rutherford was a
fiction. And I dont think a choice of birthplaces in the census in
any way suggests illegitimacy. You are relying on what was put on the
form by the householder.

Having looked Isabella up in 1881 1891 and 1901, I was confused to
see 'William' ABBOTT as head of family in 1881 - have I got the wrong
family or is that an error?

Anyway, he was head of household and it could be Edinburgh was where
he thought his wife was from. In 1819 she is a lodger and her
birthplace is just one of a lot of 'dittos' so plenty of room there
for error - but in 1901 she would have given her own details as she
was head of household. It could be wrong - Paisley could be the first
place she remembers living - but it is probably more reliable than
the others. and contains at least a clue.

For example, my gt gt grandfather John WESTON gave his birthplace as
Shropshire or Oswestry until he was listed as a widower in his
daughters household. and it is given as Liverpool. She had probably
forgotten he came from Shropshire or maybe she never knew.

The Ancestry censuses do show a RUTHERFORD family in Paisley, but for
me the name is really associated with south east Scotland, and the
census records bear this out, in terms of sheer numbers. It is also
an area with some pretty large farms including for instance at Maxton
where there were indeed RUTHERFORDs to be found farming.

This part of Scotland is also one of the strongest areas for
religious dissent and this of course would mean that the births of
children would not be recorded in the parish registers. I do know of
one RUTHERFORD researcher who has found baptisms at one of the
Jedburgh dissenting/seceding churches for which records survive and I
suggest you search the rootsweb archives for SCT-ROXBURGH and BORDER.

As for the occupation of coachman, that could have been a short-lived
thing that is not noted in a census. For example, the William
RUTHERFORD who was toll-keeper at Monteviot might have had a spell as
coachman to the family at the big house, who can tell. Or maybe it
was a case of 'bigging-up' the occupation of a groom or a ploughman.
But it is certainly true that as well as large and profitable farms
one thing the Scottish Borders has in abundance is big fancy houses.
Some of these were built for the aristos but others were built with
money made in India and again others were the result of the early
growth of tourism - holiday homes for the Edinburgh gentry or
pavilions used for fishing.

The fact that 'nothing fits' in the census doesnt surprise or trouble
me. There are plenty of near misses where the fathers occupation may
have changed. Its also as well to remember that Isabella could have
lost her father early on - if he was not mentioned as deceased on her
marriage cert that doesnt mean he was living. Nor does it worry me
that Isabella is away from 'home' for her marriage - this was the
high Victorian period and basically all she had to do was get a
letter from Peter and jump on the next train.

It is in fact Peter who may hold the best clues to Isabella. The
story of the storms doesnt sound very convincing to me because army
units went where they were posted. If you were going to Cork, Cork
would be where you went. But I would love to know which regiment he
was in as that would allow us to trace his movements with accuracy.
Did soldiers need permission to marry? There could be something in
the regimental records.

There are so many hints and clues in this story I am sure you will
crack it in the end.


Judy










On 27 Dec 2006, at 21:44, pneanne wrote:

> Hi Janet, Liz and June,
>
> Thank you for your replies.
>
> My great grandfather Peter Abbott had served in the army in the
> West Indies
> and was supposed to be sailing to Cork, but the weather was too bad
> and he
> ended up in Edinburgh. He served at the Castle for 12 months in
> about 1867.
> In 1869 he was in the Barracks in Newport, Monmouthshire and
> Isabella was in
> a lodging house and they were married in a catholic church nearby.
> I don't
> know weather she travelled there with him or followed him. Peter
> was a
> catholic and their children were brought up as catholics, but
> Isabella is
> buried in the Church of England part of Preston Cemetery and Peter
> is buried
> in the catholic part.
>
> They went to Ireland after their marriage and my grandma's brother and
> sister were born there. The children after them were born in Preston.
>
> They named their children William (Peter's father was called
> William) and
> Isabella said her father was also William, Peter, Elizabeth, Alice
> (Peter's
> mother's name), John and my grandma Ann Jane.
>
>> From this I would guess that Isabella's mother was also Isabella,
>> Elizabeth,
> Ann or Jane.
>
> Liz, I will do as you suggest and try other spellings of
> Rutherford. I know
> there can be some weird and wonderful transcriptions on Ancestry.
>
> June, I have gone sideways, backwards and forwards and everything
> else I can
> think of. Like you, I am just hoping something hits me in the
> face, that I
> have not thought of before.
>
> Unfortunately, I have no-one left that I can ask about their
> grandmother.
> The only thing I was told about her is that she was a good
> christian woman
> who read the bible every day and came from a big farm in Scotland.
>
> I am waiting for the 1911 Preston Census to come out, in the hope
> it gives a
> more accurate place of birth. I have read that it may be
> available in
> 2009.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Anne in Bolton.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Janet" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [SCT-EDINBURGH] PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HELP - RUTHERFORD
>
>
>> Anne. I just want to say, I sympathise with you in your
>> dilemma. I am
>> however rather puzzled that Peter Abbott and your Isabella were
>> married in
>> Newport, Wales when he was eventually posted to Edinburgh Castle
>> and then
>> Ireland. As a rule, we know that a marriage would have taken
>> place in the
>> Parish of the bride. Something doesn't quite fit, to my mind.
>>
>> As to the identity of the father of Isabella, I can empathise
>> here. My
>> own mother, illegitimate at birth, named her grandfather as her
>> father on
>> the occasion of her marriage to my father.
>>
>> The information in the three census records also doesn't seem to
>> fit, does
>> it.
>>
>> I am related to a number of Isabella females who came from big
>> farms in
>> Scotland. It is so that the Scottish naming patterns, when
>> applied, cause
>> confusion. I would however be inclined to accept the information
>> of your
>> grandmother, even though we know that grandmothers are given to a
>> slight
>> loss of detail, and inclined to romanticise, as mine was.
>> Nevertheless, as
>> to the basics I have found what my grandmother told me to be true.
>>
>> You're suffering from the migration syndrome where once they
>> removed to
>> another part of the country, i.e. Britain, anything is possible.
>> I have
>> something similar.
>>
>> I would however recommend you try looking for death certificates.
>> I have
>> found them amazingly useful, calculating dates of death, except,
>> with a
>> mind that early death is possible. Calculate your grandmother's
>> birth and
>> have an open mind from there.
>>
>> I realise that what I have said may have muddied the waters
>> somewhat, or
>> perhaps not. Don't give up.
>>
>> Janet
>> PS As I have been writing this two or three other responses have
>> come in
>> which I have not read.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "pneanne" <>
>>
>>
>>> Please, please, please, can someone help me to find my great
>>> grandmother,
>>>
>>> I have been researching my family for over 20 years and have also
>>> helped
>>> numerous other people knock down their brick walls, so I am not a
>>> novice,
>>> but I am absolutely stuck on my great grandmother Isabella
>>> Rutherford
>>> born about 1846, Scotland. On the censuses her age is very
>>> consistent
>>> 1846/47.
>>>
>>> On her marriage to Peter Abbott of Preston, Lancashire she shows her
>>> father as William Rutherford, coachman. Peter and Isabella were
>>> married
>>> in Newport, Wales, as he was in the army. In 1871 he was
>>> stationed in
>>> Ireland, so I have not got her on the 1871 Census.
>>>
>>> Peter Abbott was stationed at Edinburgh Castle in the 1860's
>>> before they
>>> got married, so she may be from Edinburgh or was living there at the
>>> time.
>>>
>>> On the 1881 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as EDINBURGH.
>>>
>>> On the 1891 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as PRESTON.
>>>
>>> On the 1901 Census in Preston, her birthplace is shown as PAISLEY.
>>>
>>> Years ago, I sent for a birth certificate for Isabella
>>> Rutherford, born
>>> 1846 Edinburgh, father William Rutherford. I was sent the
>>> certificate for
>>> Isabella Rutherford, father William Rutherford, fisherman and
>>> Christian
>>> Steele, in Newhaven, North Leith. I researched this family for
>>> ages and
>>> travelled to Edinburgh a few times. I eventually discounted this
>>> family,
>>> as this Isabella was still in Newhaven, Leith in 1901. I have also
>>> discounted Isabella daughter of William Rutherford and Jessie
>>> Balmer.
>>>
>>> I have looked on the 1851 and 1861 Scotland Census Indexes on
>>> Ancestry
>>> and also looked for births on Scotland's People, but nothing fits.
>>>
>>> I am beginning to think that Isabella made up the name of her
>>> father.
>>>
>>> One piece of information I had from my auntie was that her
>>> grandmother
>>> Isabella came from a big farm.
>>>
>>> If anyone can help me I will be eternally grateful, as I would
>>> love to
>>> find her family and trace them further back.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Anne in Bolton, Lancashire.
>>
>>
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