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Archiver > SCT-ROXBURGH > 2002-05 > 1021073017


From: "Don Kelly" <>
Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 16:23:37 -0700
References: <001401c1f808$5c616c80$3347fea9@mummy> <010701c1f84a$794de160$27c7d8c0@donkelly> <000f01c1f867$06239640$2510e150@grimmo>


Absolutely correct about the arbitrary (300 / 400 whatever) timeframes.

We can assume those of Viking descent from 800AD and those of Norman
descent from 1100 AD were there and made things plenty hot before the
term *Reiver* became popular.

Some violent entities were on that border 500 AD onward and the Romans
knew them all too well.

Vikings, (Norse and Danes) and Normans came later, but after 1000 AD for
a hundred or more years there was plenty going on with the border. Even
the Normans who swallowed England in one gulp, found the wild men of the
lowlands difficult.

As for *Willie*, I have to use my oft failed memory to place a name.

Wasn't he known as, something like, "Willie, Jock O' Hazeldean" Or
"Hezeldean Willie?"

Don
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Perkins" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers


> Hi Don,
>
> I agree that most 'general historians' put that sort of arbitrary
1200-1600
> time frame on the 'reivers'. 'Reivers' really means nothing more or
less
> than 'committer of ravages' or 'robber'. In the Borders however I
would
> suggest it applies to a particular style of both operation and
motivation
> and that this style of operation and motivation is confined to the
period
> from after the death of Richard III of England at Bosworth Field in
1485
> until after the Union of the Crowns under James VI and I. I would
suggest
> that the last 'reiver' of the traditional style was Willie of
Westburnflat.
> If you wish to examine the evidence for earlier activities have a look
at
> Colin MacNee's 'Wars of the Bruce's' and Alastair J MacDonald's
'Border
> Bloodshed', and also of course the 'Steel Bonnets'. The 'reivers' were
a
> local phenomenum of fairly short duration, they had no particular
national
> significance save that they were reputedly 'the finest light horse in
> Europe'. A claim which was never put to the test: they were however
> undoubtedly excellent 'on their own patch, with its special
reqirements.
>
> Regards
>
> Roy
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Kelly" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 5:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
>
>
> > Reivers is a name given by history to the riding clans of the
Anglo-Scot
> > border between 1200 and 1600 AD. There were about 100 families in
all,
> > but the riding clans among them probably numbered less than half
that
> > amount. The honored no King, followed only the clan chief, made
their
> > own laws and lived by the lance and the sword. If one were a
stranger in
> > that land at night, it was indeed a dangerous place. The reivers
also
> > were the beneficiaries of the most famous curse on earth, The
> > Archbishop's Curse. He was rather peeved at them.
> >
> > Check it out quickly at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~sctbew/
> >
> > Don Kelly, Owen, Rutledge
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Christine Percival" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 2:52 AM
> > Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
> >
> >
> > > Dear Roy,
> > >
> > > Thanks so much for this very interesting input. Were the Reivers
a
> > group of
> > > people or a family name - I've not heard of them before. It's
sounds
> > like
> > > the Borders weren't a very safe place to live! I have an
Armstrong
> > > commencing with a ggggg-grandmother!
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Christine
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Roy Perkins <>
> > > To: <>
> > > Date: Friday, May 10, 2002 8:24 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
> > >
> > >
> > > >Hi Christine,
> > > >
> > > >These notes which I sent to the Cumberland list recently might
> > help.:-)
> > > >
> > > > Most of which I wouldn't take issue with but I would suggest
that
> > the time
> > > >frame was somewhat narrower than you suggest. The 'reiver'
> > phenomenum, I
> > > >would suggest started after 'Bosworth Field' in 1485 and faded
out in
> > the
> > > >first half of the 17th century. Certainly there was unrest on the
> > Borders
> > > >long before 1485 but this was largely politically motivated.
There
> > was also
> > > >unrest after 1603 but most of this was the result of a different
> > phenomenum
> > > >called the Moss Troopers, i.e. bands of outlaws and 'broken men'.
> > > >
> > > >Three books in particular give the flavour of the Reivers.
> > > >
> > > >"The Steel Bonnets", by George MacDonald Frazer
> > > >"The Border Reivers" by Godfrey Watson
> > > >"The Last Years of a Frontier", by D.L.W. Tough.
> > > >
> > > >Surely this is a question of cause and effect and of the transfer
of
> > the
> > > >general to the specific. While what you say is certainly true of
the
> > > country
> > > >in general, in the Borders there was a specific problem. You
couldn't
> > > >conceivably have sheep left on open grazing while the Reivers
were
> > about,
> > > >they wouldn't be there for five minutes ( if you were lucky). The
> > > >introduction of the sheep grazing couldn't take place until the
> > Reiver
> > > >'problem ' had been dealt with, certainly the sheep didn't drive
> > Reivers
> > > >away !
> > > >
> > > >It's easy to look with a modern perspective and say that the end
of
> > the
> > > >Reivers must have been of great relief to the people, the
> > introduction of
> > > >'proper' law and order, etc. I don't believe that it was like
that at
> > all:
> > > >in fact a very large proportion of the inhabitants of areas like
> > Liddesdale
> > > >were either Reivers themselves or were supported and protected by
> > them. The
> > > >Union of the Crowns brought an end to the disastrous Tudor
attempts
> > at
> > > >reforming Border administration and imposed the normally
recognised
> > laws,
> > > >which is why we see the emergence of the 'Moss Troopers' in place
of
> > the
> > > >Reivers. In return for this outbreak of peace the Scottish
Borderers
> > > >received, the destruction of their, admittedly small and
impoverished
> > > arable
> > > >holdings, destitution and often transportation. Many Clans were
> > banished
> > > and
> > > >the Armstrongs in particular were dis-possessed of some
substantial
> > > holdings
> > > >to accommodate the various illegitimate sons of Scott of
Buccleuch.
> > > >
> > > >Regards
> > > >
> > > >Roy
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Christine Percival" <>
> > > >To: <>
> > > >Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:30 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Quietness of the list.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Hi all,
> > > >>
> > > >> I think it's a great idea to generate discussion on relevant
> > topics.
> > > >>
> > > >> My own personal interest is: Does anyone know some of the
local
> > history
> > > >of
> > > >> Roxburghshire for the last few hundred years. I know one can
glean
> > a few
> > > >> ideas from the Stastical Accounts, but it doesn't describe
military
> > > >> tensions; the relationship with England, battles, etc.
> > > >>
> > > >> Yours
> > > >>
> > > >> Christine
> > > >> Australia
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Roy Perkins <>
> > > >> To: <>
> > > >> Date: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:40 AM
> > > >> Subject: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Quietness of the list.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> >Hi All,
> > > >> >
> > > >> >I have been watching with interest an 'experiment' being
conducted
> > on
> > > the
> > > >> Northumbria list which involves the 'listowners' nominating a
topic
> > for
> > > >the
> > > >> month concerned with that area. So far they have had
discussions on
> > > >> 'childhood games' and 'Coronation Day', as they relate to
> > Northumbria.
> > > >This
> > > >> all seems to be going quite well and I'm prompted to ask what
> > members
> > > feel
> > > >> about something similar on SCT-ROXBURGH?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >If you have feelings on this subject, for or against, please
let
> > me
> > > know.
> > > >> Our inclusion of 'anecdotes and trivia' has hardly produced a
tidal
> > wave
> > > >of
> > > >> 'off-topic' messages, so I thought that we might help some of
our
> > > overseas
> > > >> subscribers (abt 50%)understand more of the flavour of
> > Roxburghshire by
> > > >> finding some suitable topics.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Please let me know your views and if you're in favour please
feel
> > free
> > > to
> > > >> suggest a few topics for consideration. I promise I'll be
> > democratic
> > > about
> > > >> the choice.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Regards
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Roy
> > > >> >'Listowner'
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> > > >> >Roxburghshire: Home of Hermitage Castle and the Liddesdale
> > 'limmers'
> > > >> >
> > > >> >==============================
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genealogy
> > > records,
> > > >> go to:
> > > >>
>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> > > >> Encourage you friends and relations to join 'SCT-ROXBURGH'
> > > >>
> > > >> ==============================
> > > >> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online
genealogy
> > records,
> > > >go to:
> > > >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> > > >Roxburghshire: Home of Hermitage Castle and the Liddesdale
'limmers'
> > > >
> > > >==============================
> > > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy
> > records,
> > > go to:
> > > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> > > Encourage you friends and relations to join 'SCT-ROXBURGH'
> > >
> > > ==============================
> > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy
> > records, go to:
> > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
> > >
> >
> >
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records,
> go to:
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> >
>
>
>
> ==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> Roxburghshire: Home of Hermitage Castle and the Liddesdale 'limmers'
>
> ==============================
> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy
records, go to:
> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237
>


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