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Archiver > SCT-ROXBURGH > 2002-05 > 1021376917


From: "Roy Perkins" <>
Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 12:48:37 +0100
References: <001401c1f808$5c616c80$3347fea9@mummy> <010701c1f84a$794de160$27c7d8c0@donkelly> <000f01c1f867$06239640$2510e150@grimmo> <002001c1f87a$17178340$75c7d8c0@donkelly> <008701c1f8bf$9db7e080$8554e150@grimmo> <005801c1f951$a1ba68a0$a3c5d8c0@donkelly>


Hi Don,

It appears that the Scots of Dalriada (Argyll) came south, probably by
invitation, allied with the Britons and attacked the Anglian settlement
(kingdom) of Bernicia. The Angles in their turn marched north and met the
Scots at the head of the North Tyne Valley, somewhere around Dawstone and
the Angles triumphed. The story is related by Bede and is the best evidence
we have though what sounds like the same tale is rehearsed in the Icelandic
Saga's, where it is called the Battle of Vinheath.

There was also an earlier battle in 575A.D. at/near Arthuret, Cumberland at
the foot of Liddesdale.

Regards

Roy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Kelly" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 1:58 AM
Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers


> Interesting Roy. 603 was after Rome left and before the Vikings came.
> Makes me wonder when the Angles and Saxons (likely different times)
> began their own conquest of England.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roy Perkins" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 12:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
>
>
> > Hi Don,
> >
> > The earliest inhabitants that we know of by name were the Selgovae,
> who were
> > there in Roman times and were evidently a very warlike people.
> >
> > We also know that there were at least two major battles Degsastan in
> 603A.D.
> > against the Angles and Arturet in 575A.D. fought between Gwendolleau
> of Caer
> > Gwendolleau (Carwinley) and Peredur of York. I also have a very
> strong
> > inclination to believe that there was a battle fought between the
> Selgovae
> > and the Romans at or near Mangerton but I can't prove it.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Roy.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Don Kelly" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 12:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
> >
> >
> > > Absolutely correct about the arbitrary (300 / 400 whatever)
> timeframes.
> > >
> > > We can assume those of Viking descent from 800AD and those of Norman
> > > descent from 1100 AD were there and made things plenty hot before
> the
> > > term *Reiver* became popular.
> > >
> > > Some violent entities were on that border 500 AD onward and the
> Romans
> > > knew them all too well.
> > >
> > > Vikings, (Norse and Danes) and Normans came later, but after 1000 AD
> for
> > > a hundred or more years there was plenty going on with the border.
> Even
> > > the Normans who swallowed England in one gulp, found the wild men of
> the
> > > lowlands difficult.
> > >
> > > As for *Willie*, I have to use my oft failed memory to place a name.
> > >
> > > Wasn't he known as, something like, "Willie, Jock O' Hazeldean" Or
> > > "Hezeldean Willie?"
> > >
> > > Don
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Roy Perkins" <>
> > > To: <>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 2:09 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Don,
> > > >
> > > > I agree that most 'general historians' put that sort of arbitrary
> > > 1200-1600
> > > > time frame on the 'reivers'. 'Reivers' really means nothing more
> or
> > > less
> > > > than 'committer of ravages' or 'robber'. In the Borders however I
> > > would
> > > > suggest it applies to a particular style of both operation and
> > > motivation
> > > > and that this style of operation and motivation is confined to the
> > > period
> > > > from after the death of Richard III of England at Bosworth Field
> in
> > > 1485
> > > > until after the Union of the Crowns under James VI and I. I would
> > > suggest
> > > > that the last 'reiver' of the traditional style was Willie of
> > > Westburnflat.
> > > > If you wish to examine the evidence for earlier activities have a
> look
> > > at
> > > > Colin MacNee's 'Wars of the Bruce's' and Alastair J MacDonald's
> > > 'Border
> > > > Bloodshed', and also of course the 'Steel Bonnets'. The 'reivers'
> were
> > > a
> > > > local phenomenum of fairly short duration, they had no particular
> > > national
> > > > significance save that they were reputedly 'the finest light horse
> in
> > > > Europe'. A claim which was never put to the test: they were
> however
> > > > undoubtedly excellent 'on their own patch, with its special
> > > reqirements.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Roy
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Don Kelly" <>
> > > > To: <>
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 5:41 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Reivers is a name given by history to the riding clans of the
> > > Anglo-Scot
> > > > > border between 1200 and 1600 AD. There were about 100 families
> in
> > > all,
> > > > > but the riding clans among them probably numbered less than half
> > > that
> > > > > amount. The honored no King, followed only the clan chief, made
> > > their
> > > > > own laws and lived by the lance and the sword. If one were a
> > > stranger in
> > > > > that land at night, it was indeed a dangerous place. The reivers
> > > also
> > > > > were the beneficiaries of the most famous curse on earth, The
> > > > > Archbishop's Curse. He was rather peeved at them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Check it out quickly at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~sctbew/
> > > > >
> > > > > Don Kelly, Owen, Rutledge
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Christine Percival" <>
> > > > > To: <>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2002 2:52 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Roy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks so much for this very interesting input. Were the
> Reivers
> > > a
> > > > > group of
> > > > > > people or a family name - I've not heard of them before. It's
> > > sounds
> > > > > like
> > > > > > the Borders weren't a very safe place to live! I have an
> > > Armstrong
> > > > > > commencing with a ggggg-grandmother!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Christine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Roy Perkins <>
> > > > > > To: <>
> > > > > > Date: Friday, May 10, 2002 8:24 AM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Border Reivers
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Hi Christine,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >These notes which I sent to the Cumberland list recently
> might
> > > > > help.:-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most of which I wouldn't take issue with but I would suggest
> > > that
> > > > > the time
> > > > > > >frame was somewhat narrower than you suggest. The 'reiver'
> > > > > phenomenum, I
> > > > > > >would suggest started after 'Bosworth Field' in 1485 and
> faded
> > > out in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >first half of the 17th century. Certainly there was unrest on
> the
> > > > > Borders
> > > > > > >long before 1485 but this was largely politically motivated.
> > > There
> > > > > was also
> > > > > > >unrest after 1603 but most of this was the result of a
> different
> > > > > phenomenum
> > > > > > >called the Moss Troopers, i.e. bands of outlaws and 'broken
> men'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Three books in particular give the flavour of the Reivers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >"The Steel Bonnets", by George MacDonald Frazer
> > > > > > >"The Border Reivers" by Godfrey Watson
> > > > > > >"The Last Years of a Frontier", by D.L.W. Tough.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Surely this is a question of cause and effect and of the
> transfer
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >general to the specific. While what you say is certainly true
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > country
> > > > > > >in general, in the Borders there was a specific problem. You
> > > couldn't
> > > > > > >conceivably have sheep left on open grazing while the Reivers
> > > were
> > > > > about,
> > > > > > >they wouldn't be there for five minutes ( if you were lucky).
> The
> > > > > > >introduction of the sheep grazing couldn't take place until
> the
> > > > > Reiver
> > > > > > >'problem ' had been dealt with, certainly the sheep didn't
> drive
> > > > > Reivers
> > > > > > >away !
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >It's easy to look with a modern perspective and say that the
> end
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >Reivers must have been of great relief to the people, the
> > > > > introduction of
> > > > > > >'proper' law and order, etc. I don't believe that it was like
> > > that at
> > > > > all:
> > > > > > >in fact a very large proportion of the inhabitants of areas
> like
> > > > > Liddesdale
> > > > > > >were either Reivers themselves or were supported and
> protected by
> > > > > them. The
> > > > > > >Union of the Crowns brought an end to the disastrous Tudor
> > > attempts
> > > > > at
> > > > > > >reforming Border administration and imposed the normally
> > > recognised
> > > > > laws,
> > > > > > >which is why we see the emergence of the 'Moss Troopers' in
> place
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >Reivers. In return for this outbreak of peace the Scottish
> > > Borderers
> > > > > > >received, the destruction of their, admittedly small and
> > > impoverished
> > > > > > arable
> > > > > > >holdings, destitution and often transportation. Many Clans
> were
> > > > > banished
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > >the Armstrongs in particular were dis-possessed of some
> > > substantial
> > > > > > holdings
> > > > > > >to accommodate the various illegitimate sons of Scott of
> > > Buccleuch.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Roy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Christine Percival" <>
> > > > > > >To: <>
> > > > > > >Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 9:30 AM
> > > > > > >Subject: Re: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Quietness of the list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Hi all,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I think it's a great idea to generate discussion on
> relevant
> > > > > topics.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> My own personal interest is: Does anyone know some of the
> > > local
> > > > > history
> > > > > > >of
> > > > > > >> Roxburghshire for the last few hundred years. I know one
> can
> > > glean
> > > > > a few
> > > > > > >> ideas from the Stastical Accounts, but it doesn't describe
> > > military
> > > > > > >> tensions; the relationship with England, battles, etc.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Yours
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Christine
> > > > > > >> Australia
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> From: Roy Perkins <>
> > > > > > >> To:
> <>
> > > > > > >> Date: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:40 AM
> > > > > > >> Subject: [SCT-ROXBURGH] Quietness of the list.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >Hi All,
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >I have been watching with interest an 'experiment' being
> > > conducted
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > >> Northumbria list which involves the 'listowners' nominating
> a
> > > topic
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > >> month concerned with that area. So far they have had
> > > discussions on
> > > > > > >> 'childhood games' and 'Coronation Day', as they relate to
> > > > > Northumbria.
> > > > > > >This
> > > > > > >> all seems to be going quite well and I'm prompted to ask
> what
> > > > > members
> > > > > > feel
> > > > > > >> about something similar on SCT-ROXBURGH?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >If you have feelings on this subject, for or against,
> please
> > > let
> > > > > me
> > > > > > know.
> > > > > > >> Our inclusion of 'anecdotes and trivia' has hardly produced
> a
> > > tidal
> > > > > wave
> > > > > > >of
> > > > > > >> 'off-topic' messages, so I thought that we might help some
> of
> > > our
> > > > > > overseas
> > > > > > >> subscribers (abt 50%)understand more of the flavour of
> > > > > Roxburghshire by
> > > > > > >> finding some suitable topics.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >Please let me know your views and if you're in favour
> please
> > > feel
> > > > > free
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> suggest a few topics for consideration. I promise I'll be
> > > > > democratic
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > >> the choice.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >Regards
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >Roy
> > > > > > >> >'Listowner'
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> > > > > > >> >Roxburghshire: Home of Hermitage Castle and the Liddesdale
> > > > > 'limmers'
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >==============================
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> > > genealogy
> > > > > > records,
> > > > > > >> go to:
> > > > > > >>
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> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
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> > > genealogy
> > > > > records,
> > > > > > >go to:
> > > > > > >>
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> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> > > > > > >Roxburghshire: Home of Hermitage Castle and the Liddesdale
> > > 'limmers'
> > > > > > >
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> genealogy
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> > > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > ==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
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> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > ==== SCT-ROXBURGH Mailing List ====
> > > > Roxburghshire: Home of Hermitage Castle and the Liddesdale
> 'limmers'
> > > >
> > > > ==============================
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> >
> >
> >
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