SEE-L ArchivesArchiver > SEE > 2000-10 > 0972049669
From: Sara Patton <>
Subject: [SEE-L] George ZEH/SAY/SEE in PA-Part 2
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:47:49 -0400
In checking for possible citings for Zeh, Say, or See, I also looked under
Lay, Ley, Lee thinking that others may have interpreted or transcribed them
incorrectly. Hank Jones and Joseph Kellogg also claim that other German
spellings such as Seys, Süss, Sech/Zech/Six might also be Zeh, Say or
See. While Im not entirely convinced of this, I did include them for
others to make their own decisions.
Other possible Says found in early PA/Lancaster Co records:
Johan Ludovick SEYS/Johann Ludwig Seess among 67 Palatine families from
Rotterdam on the Brigandine Pennsylvania Merchant of London arriving 18 Sep
1733 and taking oath. Ship Passenger Lists, PA & DE-1641/1825 by Carl
Boyer, pp. 76-77 [Hank Stuebing saw similar citation in Strassberger, Ralph
Beaver and Hinke, William John and says ship list reads and there were no
SEE women listed among the many women on board.] This is probably where
the Ludwig of George Ludwig See comes from. I personally think this is a
total misinterpretation by later genealogists and that our George See is
Johann Georg Zeh, son of Johannes and Anna Magdalena Zeh/Zehe, confirmed in
West Camp Lutheran Church in 1711.
James Say --Aug 1736 mentioned as victim of John Campbel (sic) who stole a
gray gelding worth £5. Defendant to receive 39 lashes, pay court £10 and
restitution to James Say. In original records in Lancaster Co, PA Court of
General Quarter Sessions 1729-1742, p. 172.
James Say -- Land Warrant #483 in Lancaster Co. June 19, 1746 for 200 acres
at Pennsboro on Susquehannah River. Original in PA State Archives.
Ludwig Lay, Andreas Yokam, Heinrich Dubbs arriving Sept 1, 1736 on Ship
Harles from Rotterdam Ship Passenger Lists PA & Delaware (1641-1825) , Carl
Boyer 1980. Interesting possibility since it associates a Lay (Say?)
with a Yoakum and Heinrich Dubbs who later serves as sponsor for George
Zehs daughter, Anna Maria. However, the 1767 will entry for Ludwig Lay in
Lancaster Wills definitely looks to be an L not an S.
Balthus/Baltzer Sees/Süss listed in Tulpehocken area on some of same
documents as George Zeh. -d. 1765
Johann Bernhard See 25 Nov 1740 arrived in Philadelphia on ship "Loyal
Judith" captained by John Lovell Paynter from in Rotterdam, Holland via
Liverpool, England. His names appeared on three lists: the Captain's
list, a list of all passengers, List B Signers of the Oath of Allegiance
(to the King of England), List C Signers of the Oath of Abjuration. His
age was given as 26, so he was born in 1714.
On List A we find the name "Bernet Saye"; on List B we find the name
"Johann Bernhard See"; on List C we find the name "Johann Bernhard
See". His name was written by a clerk with a mark "Johan (mark)
Seys". Strassberger, Ralph Beaver and Hinke, William John,
Pennsylvania German Pioneers (Pennsylvania German Society, Norristown PA, 1934)
Johann Wilhelm See, son of Brenhardt See, was baptized on 15 Jun 1745 and
Anna Elisabeth See, daughter of Johann Bernhard and Susanna, born on 1 Feb
1753 at St. Michael's Lutheran Church in Germantown, Philadelphia Co,
PA. The mother's name is not given. (From Hank Stuebing, no book or
specific document cited.)
Within this same time frame, I also found land records for Barnard See in
VA in 1752 with 400 acres on Mill Creek in the area between Big Stony,
Holman's and Smith's Creeks in Shenandoah Valley (NW of New Market)...quite
a distance from the South Branch Valley, and among neighbors are not at all
familiar. In 17531754, Augusta Co, VA tax records note Barned See, gone
out of County" Augusta Co Delinquents: Chalkley Vol 2:415.
John See is also listed during this same time period in Augusta Co, VA
records in August 1751 as an appraiser for Alexander Scots estate in the
South Branch Valley, and Oct, 1751, as a land holder of 250A on W side of
Greenbrier River at Deep Spring, between the spring & Stomping Creek (the
same approximate time that Frederick and George See, and Felty and Matthias
Yoakum enter land in the Greenbrier area.) In March, 1756, John See is
listed as killed by Indians on Reed Creek (Draper MssPreston Papers) and in
August 1756, Frederick See is appointed administrator of John Sees estate.
There is a good possibility that these are 3 different people: Bernard
living with his wife and children in Bucks Co, PA in 1745-1753, another
Barnard in the Shenandoah Valley in 1751, and John in the South Branch and
Greenbrier. Frederick is definitely connected to John See of the South
Branch and Greenbrier, and since there is no evidence that Johns middle
name was Bernard, it may be that earlier genealogists have simply combined
the two, especially those arguing for the 1733 arrival of the Sees to PA,
followed by the 1740 arrival of Johann Bernard See.
Ludwig Suess (Conewago) father of
-Johan Lenhardt b. March 10, 1740; bapt May 20, 1740. Sponsor John
Lenhardt Bernitz; and
-Maria Salome bapt. May 20, 1740. Sponsor Maria Salome Mittelkauf.
(cited in Stoever Records.)
Salome Suess, m. Johann Heinrich Beyer - Tulpehocken March 10, 1754. -
probably same Maria Salome bapt. in 1740 above. (cited in Stoever Records,
Johan Cristoph Suess married Catarina Elisabetha Haager, Warwick Twp. Oct
21 1746 (cited in Stoever Records, p. 61.)
Johan Wilhelm Stober and Anna Margaretha Suess, Warwick Twp. Oct 21 1746
(cited in Stoever Records, p. 61.)
Philippus Zeh 3 Oct 1753; lands in Philadelphia Co. on ship "Louisa" from
Rotterdam, Holland via Cowes, England, name varies on ship lists as "Philip
See" and "Philippus Zeh". His age was given as 27, so he was born in 1726.
Friederich Zeh, baptized in Christ Lutheran Church; 3 Oct 1756. Father :
Philip Zeh and mother Cath Zeh (Note: the same church George Zeh is listed
as charter member in 1743.) George and Margaret Zeh/See family living in
VA at this time. Is this a son left in PA? He is not listed in Margarets
Girtrude Shie 24 Apr 25, 1749 Land Warrant in Lancaster Co. 150 acres
(citation in PA Archives Warrantees of Land 1730-1898" 3rd series V. 24)
John/Johann George Lay: The Lancaster Co will of John George Lay (d.
1775) of Warwick Twp. named wife Maria Barbara, daughters Susannah,
Magdalena, Anna Maria, and Fronicasome familiar names. This appeared to
be a potential citing for our Johan George Say but the handwriting appears
to be an L and the location of Warwick Twp put him out of the
Heinrich Sech, wife Christina & 1 child on Simmendinger List 1717
Henry SEETZ 11 Dec 1739; landed in Philadelphia on ship Lydia
Henry Sees 16 Oct 1752; arrives in Philadelphia Co. on the ship "Snow
Ketty" from Rotterdam, Holland via Portsmouth, England. Strassberger,
Ralph Beaver and Hinke, William John Pennsylvania German Pioneers,
(Pennsylvania German Society, Norristown PA, 1934)
Henry Sess paid the Proprietary Tax in Philadelphia Co. in 1769. [Hank
Stuebing from PA Archives, 3rd Series, Vol XIV:135]
Heinrich Seh is husband of Elisabeth Seltzer named in Will of her father
Weyrich Seltzer, Berks Co Wills 31 May 1796.
George See: Carpenter who renovated the Host Church in Tulpehocken area in
1832, putting in a floor of boards...and other changes...to bring it up to
the requirements of that day...at seventy five cents per day and board.
(Montgomery. History of Berks Co, PA, V1:1087)
Richard Say: ca 1830 - 1880 (?) of Sees (pronounced Says in local area,
even today) Hill in same area of land warranted to George Say in 1737. A
noted horse trader and drover with large farm at foot of Sees Hill just
north of Myerstown. Was on Board of Trustees for Myerstown Bank. (Did
You Know article by Viola Mohn in Tulpehocken Tatler, 1987)
Comments on our trip to Pennsylvania:
Doing research in PA is not as straightforward as it might appear. Just to
know where to look and what records to ask for required an understanding of
the dates and boundaries of county lines and geographical regions as they
changed through time, a knowledge of the surnames of associated
peopleneighbors, fellow Schoharie emigrants, church members, relatives and
future South Branch settlers.
In the time that George See/Zeh actually lived in the Tulpehocken region,
the region was first part of Chester County, in 1728 was added to Lancaster
Co, and in 1752 (after he left) the Tulpehocken region lay in what became
Berks and Lebanon Co. Thus any governmental records (land, estate, court
records) are found in Chester, Lancaster, and possibly Philadelphia
counties or in provincial record holdings.
IF the records to that period still existed, it helped to know what types
of records would be held at the county level, at the state or provincial
level, or at the church level. And finally, the continuing problem of
reading the handwriting and trying to determine if the phonetically written
German names are actually the names we are seeking.
Historical background information was essential to that understanding. A
trip to the Historical Societies in both Lancaster and Berks Co allowed us
to find background articles and books on the local history that we couldnt
While we all know the problems with the phonetic translation of German
names by English clerks, the lack of consistent spellings, and the
variation in penmanship, we often forget the problems of interpretation and
transcriptions. By using only published or secondary source material, we
rely on the interpretations, typing skills, and abbreviated information of
others. Because my own search for original documents (or microfilms
thereof) has provided a wealth of information not always found in published
sources, my research motto has become Show me the original!
Thus I felt very smug when reading a little booklet compiled by Annette K.
Burgert, entitled A Research Guide to the Tulpehocken Region Lancaster
(Now Berks and Lebanon) Counties, PA. In her introduction, she makes note
of the multitude of histories and interpretations regarding the early
settlers of the Tulpehocken area: ...much conflicting information has
appeared in print, and has been frequently quoted from one historian to the
next without checking the original source document for accuracy of
transcribing or translating....Certain names that appear on some of the
petitions were difficult to read, and although translated and published, it
is advisable to check the original..., especially if you have an ancestor
who supposedly was among the early settlers, but seemingly does not
appear.... Even comparing her list of names for the 1725 Tulpehocken Twp.
Tax assessment with a copy of the original document, I found myself
disagreeing with her interpretation and was glad Id seen it for myself.
Ive only included PA documents in the list above. I did not include
unsubstantiated statements regarding George Zeh/Say in secondary sources
like Rupp, Kellogg, Jones, Croll, Knittle, etc. unless they cited specific
evidence or documents.
Other writers including Henry Z. Jones and Joseph Kellogg also claim that
Süss, Six, Zech may also be interpreted as Zeh. I have somewhat of a
problem with that theory and am more inclined to take a more phonetic
approach. In looking at both Pennsylvania and Virginia records, it is
pretty clear that the German Zeh is pronounced to rhyme with Say and that
Zeh, as written by the German Moravian missionaries in 1749, is probably
the correct spelling.
Earl Ibach, author of the Hub of Tulpehocken and a resident and
descendant of many generations of German- speaking Tulpehocken natives,
told us that Zeh in German meant saw meaning the family occupation was
traditionally that of carpenters.