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From: "Dennis Reiley" <>
Subject: Re: [SH] Is there such a Place? - gheal (ghil) or sceach (skeagh)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:42:22 -0500
References: <66.19f47409.296906d9@aol.com> <015301c19716$957f30e0$e769580c@newmicronpc>


Awesome Nancy, really awesome!

Best wishes,
Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy Coleman" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [SH] Is there such a Place? - gheal (ghil) or sceach (skeagh)


> Dear Nancy:
>
> Sometimes, when a placename is not listed anywhere, under
> any variation, I take a step back and go to my Irish-English
> dictionary and translate it back and forth a couple of times
> to see what other variations there may be.
>
> In the case of Hawthorn(e), which is obviously not Irish,
> the Irish translation can be either "sceach" (thornbush or
> bramble - but more commonly hawthorn), or "gheal"
> (whitethorn, hawthorn). Using that, again you may have to
> Anglicize the Irish word for how it may be spelled today.
> Or, in some cases, half of the word remains in Irish, the
> other half in English. Odd, but true. The names have
> morphed over the years, particularly in the more northern
> areas of Ireland.
>
> I was not able to find any townland under the spelling given
> by my Irish dictionary (sceach or gheal). But, I was able
> to find variations for gheal: ghil, and for sceach, there
> are several: skeagh, skea, skagh, ska, sceath.
>
> Using this method, I have found a few possibilities for you
> (you have to dissect the word to come to its correct meaning
> unless you happen to run upon the exact spelling in a
> townland dictionary):
>
> Placename - County - Civil Parish - Poor Law Union
>
> Barnacoghil - Sligo - Templeboy - Dromore West
> (barna=bearna=gap)
> Cloonlaughil - Sligo - Achonry - Tobercurry
> (cloon=cluain=pasture
> Laughil - Sligo - Achonry - Tobercurry
> (leamhchoill=elmwood)
> Oghil - Sligo - Kilglass - Dromore West (eochaill=yewwood)
>
> None of the above seem likely...
>
> Carrownaskeagh - Sligo - Killoran - Tobercurry
> (carrow=ceathru=quarter)
> Coolskeagh - Sligo - Drumcolumb - Sligo (cool=cuil=nook)
> Corskeagh - Sligo - Dromard - Dromore West (cor=corr=hill
> or snout)
> Dernaskeagh - Sligo - Toomour - Boyle (derna=doire=oak or
> variant of oak)
> Knocknaskeagh - Sligo - Kilfree - Boyle (knock=cnoc=hill)
> Liskeagh - Sligo - Kilshalvy - Boyle (lis=lios=fort)
>
> My first step would be to check the householder's index to
> see if there are any Dorsey's listed in any of these six
> places. See spelling variant below before you do this
> though. Pay particular attention to any entries for the
> Tithe Applotment (T) reference.
>
> If you aren't limiting your search to just Co. Sligo, here
> are all of the "Hawthorns" (Skeagh) in Ireland:
>
> Placename County Civil Parish Poor Law Union
> Skeagh Antrim Kilwaughter Larne
> Skeagh Cavan Killinagh Enniskillen
> Skeagh Cavan Knockbride Bailieborough
> Skeagh Cork Abbeystrowry Skibbereen
> Skeagh Cork Skull Skull
> Skeagh Donegal Clondahorky Dunfanaghy
> Skeagh Down Dromore Banbridge
> Skeagh Dublin Newcastle Celbridge
> Skeagh Fermanagh Aghavea Lisnaskea
> Skeagh Kildare Lyons Celbridge
> Skeagh Laois Aghaboe Donaghmore
> Skeagh Monaghan Drumsnat Monaghan
> Skeagh Roscommon Kilmore Carrick on Shannon
> Skeagh Tipperary Loughmoe East Thurles
>
> Chances are, however, that the "Hawthorn" on the tombstone
> may be a place smaller than an official townland or a
> townland name that disappeared long before some of the
> standardizations and townland lists were prepared. Your man
> died in 1856 at the age of 38 in Rhode Island which means he
> was born approximately 1818 in Ireland and there is no
> telling, from the stone, when he came to the US, but perhaps
> well before the famine at age 21ish (1839). So, the
> reference to "Hawthorn" could be to a very early reference
> to the place (obviously Anglicized), and perhaps even the
> name of an estate, not a townland. Kyle Betit and Dwight
> Radford recommend the following:
>
> "Ambrose Leet's A Directory to the Market Towns, Villages,
> Gentlemen's Seats, and Other Noted Places in Ireland,
> written in 1814 (FHL #990023 item 2), is especially helpful
> if a place name is a manor house or an estate."
>
> I find no "Hawthorn," feature or placename on maps that I
> have (current Michelin, OS, 1820, or 1875). But, again,
> that doesn't mean anything if it was a very small place.
> The most difficult might be to consider that "Hawthorn" is a
> physical feature, like a hill, stream, or glen that does not
> appear on current or even late 19th century maps. In that
> case, one of the above six townlands may very well be your
> match as most describe a physical feature and, irish
> townland names are many times just that, physical
> descriptions. Unfortunately, hawthorns (or whitethorns)
> were the most common shrub used for hedgerows! So, they are
> everywhere.
>
> The reference could also be to a subdivision of Sligo City
> itself (or another large town); a district that is only
> known informally as a neighborhood, not a civil division of
> any kind. I do not have a detailed map of Sligo City or
> other towns, so I can't help you there. But, I have had
> that happen in Dublin Co. where the name really was a small
> location within Dublin City.
>
> The other clue you may need to use is the name of the man,
> Felix Dorsey. I've done research on this name myself and
> have found the most common variation to be D'Arcy. In fact,
> that name variation usually was the rule, not the exception
> in my case despite it never being used in the US. The ones
> I tracked down turned out to be in Co. Leitrim, which, of
> course, borders Co. Sligo, as do Mayo and Roscommon.
> Consider that he may have always said he sailed from Sligo
> or migrated/resided there prior to his departure, but was
> originally from a Hawthorn in another county. Unless he
> ordered his own tombstone, this may be the case; the
> informant/purchaser may not have really known the county.
> Or, Hawthorn is a mistake and Co. Sligo is correct. Who
> knows... :) I've certainly seen bigger mistakes than that!
>
> But, my guess is that you may luck out with the name of an
> estate, farm, or manor house (reference above). There were
> (and still are) many of these in Co. Sligo. One that I have
> found (just using Google):
> Hawthorn Farm
> John & Caroline Normanly
> Hawthorn Farm
> Ballincurry
> Curry
> Co. Sligo Tel: 071 85565
>
> And, again, you can check the householder's index to see if
> any D'Arcys are around that place for the Tithe or
> Griffith's.
>
> Hope this helps. Best regards. Nancy.
> NColeman
>
> NYC/Long Island Family History Research Services:
> http://www.genealogyPro.com/ncoleman.html
> County Coordinator for the Nassau GenExchange:
> http://www.genexchange.org/county.cfm?state=ny&county=nassau
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 8:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [SH] Is there such a Place?
>
>
> >
> > Nancy
> >
> > I can't tell you where Hawthorn(e) Co Sligo is but in
> searching my husband's
> > side in Limerick I found that his g grandfather's
> birthplace was called
> > Glenanair (now spelled Glenanaar). In an affidavit he
> stated it was formerly
> > known as Moanmore.
> > When I looked at the land records, Moanmore was in
> parenthesis next to
> > Glenanair but I have never see it in an index.
> >
> > My father's townland is Crimlin, Mayo but is listed as
> Crumlin in the land
> > records. My first cousin still lives in Crimlin and I
> asked him the correct
> > spelling and it's Crimlin.
> >
> > So, there is the possibility that the name change (if
> that's the case)
> > happened before the Griffith's land records.
> >
> > Nora
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > I have found a reference to Felix Dorsey died 12th
> November,1856 aged 38
> > > In St Patrick's cemetery Providence, Rhode Island ,
> stating he was a native
> > > of Hawthorn(e) Co Sligo. Can't find this on Parish or
> townland lists. Can
> > > anyone help, please ?---could of course be a misprint,
> or a place that
> > > sounded like this?
> > > > All /any suggestions gratefully received
> > > >
>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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