SKAGGS-L Archives

Archiver > SKAGGS > 2010-10 > 1286950756


From:
Subject: Re: [SKAGGS] Genetic Origins of Lucy THOMPSON who md. CharlesSKAGGS, c1740-1811
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:19:16 -0400
References: <8CD3749046B6209-1244-25339@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com><2835035B990545D784FE869037AE0CD9@desktop><8CD3827C36D14E4-1BDC-A68E@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com><70A81F7E97174A2883BBB7BA4331E8CD@glen><8CD3884C304BD83-D78-8448@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com><4FD72F895F594157BBE771695BC14A70@glen>
In-Reply-To: <4FD72F895F594157BBE771695BC14A70@glen>




Glen,

According to the diary of Archibald Thompson (Lucy's brother) the Thompson family came from Ireland. Their father was John Thompson, and their mother was Mary, probably born before 1718, since her eldest child was born in 1734. Mary's parents would probably have been born before 1700.

In 17th century colonial America, the ration of men to women was about 3:2, according published research. This ratio probably favored men even more in more remote or wilderness areas. This lack of women in early Colonial America could account for some tendency to marry Native American women. However, it also means that early colonial women would be much more likely to marry colonial men than the local natives. Ergo, if Mary had a Native American father, she would have most likely had a Native American mother. The burden of proof certainly swings toward proving that Mary had an Indian father, which is possible, if unlikely.

The Affidavits in question were made in 1906, over 200 years after Mary was born. Two hundred years is more than enough time for idle speculation to turn into oral history. So, no, I do not believe that these Affidavits hold any more weight than any other family stories.

IMHO, I do think the mtDNA evidence, taken together with all other evidence, is enough to put these family stories to bed.

In any case, there are some very good messages in the archives that clarify the information in these 1906 Indian Affidavits to some degree:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/skaggs/1998-03/0889022305
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/skaggs/1998-03/0888965948
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/skaggs/2000-09/0967942660
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/skaggs/1999-01/0916097938

The archives are a great source for research. Here is a link to the archive search page:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/search?aop&path=SKAGGS

Bill Vincent






-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Fine <>
To:
Sent: Wed, Oct 13, 2010 1:14 am
Subject: Re: [SKAGGS] Genetic Origins of Lucy THOMPSON who md. Charles SKAGGS, c1740-1811


Bill

I offered the information about the affidavits as a messenger - not as an
advocate of what they say. I am always careful of accepting assertions
without documentation. But, I do think recorded sworn statements deserve a
little more credence than the usual word of mouth family stories. Gord and
Ross particularly deserve some credence because they are not swearing to a
family story, but rather to something of their personal knowledge.

I have no personal basis for beliefs about the accuracy of the documents
I've summarized. I'm fairly new to Skaggs research and know nothing about
the lines alluded to in these affidavits. I have only looked carefully at my
mother's Skaggs line which runs through James III and that line is not
identified in the various affidavits I have. If you don't have copies I'll
be pleased to send them. I have others beyond the two I've cited.

But, about the mtDNA - I'm a little more comfortable with that subject. If
you trace a maternal line back through all those maiden name changes to the
Thompson woman in the 1700s and the mtDNA reveals a European haplogroup,all
that means is the Thompson woman's mother was also the same European
haplogroup.It doesn't tell you how much or how little Native American blood
the woman may have had. Hypothetically, the Thompson woman's father could
have been full blood Native American and her mother a significant percentage
of Native American.

Forgive me if I am making too much of what you said or taking it too
literally. But, the one affidavit says that Gord and Ross believe Betsey
Thompson was 3/4 Cherokee. You say that mtDNA refutes the affidavit. You
might rethink that. You might be right about the mtDNA haplogroup and they
might have been right that she was a lot Cherokee,

Glen
----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: [SKAGGS] Genetic Origins of Lucy THOMPSON who md. Charles
SKAGGS, c1740-1811


>
>
>
> I am familiar with that information that traces back to Lucy Thompson, the
> wife of Charles Skaggs, not Mary. Lucy's sister Mary married Henry SKAGGS.
> Their mother was Mary who married John THOMPSON. If there was a different
> SKAGGS line that married into a different THOMPSON line, I am unaware of
> it.
>
> What I am saying is those affidavits are now refuted by mtDNA. The none of
> these THOMPSON women were Native American.
>
> Could an earlier ancestor married into a Native American family? I
> suppose, but it's altogether unlikely. Someone in every family tells a
> similar tale. You can believe what you will. BTW, I have heard the "waif"
> story in many families also. That's another tale of which to be wary.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glen Fine <>
> To:
> Sent: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 3:51 pm
> Subject: Re: [SKAGGS] Genetic Origins of Lucy THOMPSON who md. Charles
> SKAGGS, c1740-1811
>
>
> Bill,
>
> You may be familiar with some sworn affidavits relating to the Skaggs
> family
> and Cherokee blood. If not, they may be of interest. In the 1890s a James
> L.
> Skaggs of Missouri was seeking citizenship in the Cherokee Nation for
> himself and others. A number of sworn affidavits were made by extended
> family members and persons familiar with the family.
>
> Nancy L. Skaggs, age 38, of Denton County, TX, provided a sworn notorized
> statement on 13 July, 1893. Nancy said her Uncle was James Skaggs who died
> in Denton County in 1877. She said that before he died Uncle James
> explained
> what he knew of the Skaggs family relationship to the Cherokees. He told
> her
> and others that the first Skaggs in America was William Skaggs, an orphan
> from Wales. William married a Cherokee girl named Jones. They had 7 sons
> and
> one was named William Jones Skaggs who married a Cherokee girl named
> Smith.
> One of their sons was Charles Skaggs who married a Cherokee girl named
> Polly
> Thompson. Polly was 1/2 Cherokee and was a daughter of Betsey Thompson.
> Uncle James said he descended from Charles Skaggs.
>
> On 12-5-1893, sworn affidavit was made in US Court Western District by
> John
> R. Gord, age 75, and John Ross, age 68, in support of citizenship claims
> for
> members of the Skaggs family. Gord and Ross were citizens of the Cherokee
> Nation and Gord was a member of the council. Gord and Ross swore they were
> personally acquainted with Betsey Thompson who lived on the Conasuaga
> River
> in Georgia. They said that Betsey Thompson was at least 3/4 Cherokee blood
> and she was enrolled under the Treaty of 1835 as Cherokee by blood.
>
> These affidavits do reinforce all the anecdotal suggestions about Cherokee
> blood in the Skaggs family. The affidavit by Nancy Skaggs suggests the
> first
> Cherokee woman who married a Skaggs was herself of mixed blood.
>
> Your mitochonrdial dna finding is an impressive accomplishment. But,
> though
> it fails to lead to a full blood Native American woman, the test result
> standing alone doesn't negate the likelihood of Cherokee blood in the
> Skaggs
> family.
>
> Glen
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [SKAGGS] Genetic Origins of Lucy THOMPSON who md. Charles
> SKAGGS, c1740-1811
>
>
>> Thanks for the response, Herb.
>>
>> When I first posted the message I expected a flurry of comments about the
>> results. However, there is a lot of information there to absorb, and
>> concepts related to mtDNA are not as straightforward as y-DNA results, in
>> that they are not connected directly with any one male surname.
>>
>> The other issue is the general concept of Native American ancestry, which
>> seems to be claimed by nearly every Kentucky family. On that basis, there
>> seems to have been an entire nation of Native Americans in Kentucky at
>> all
>> times, hiding, lurking, and awaiting their chance to procreate with
>> Caucasians. Moreover, the majority of these Native Americans seem to
>> have
>> been female, because the family stories invariably link back to some
>> grandmother. By comparison, almost no one claims that their paternal
>> lineage is Native American, implying that females greatly outnumbered
>> males somehow. Let's just say... I am quite skeptical about most of these
>> claims.
>>
>> Half of me was hoping the mtDNA would prove Nancy Skaggs was part Native
>> American, while the other half hoped to debunk the myth. In the end, the
>> results were actually much more interesting.
>>
>> I have found few exact matches to the mtDNA of Nancy Skaggs and Lucy
>> Thompson. One person's family is from Edmonson County, KY,
>> unsurprisingly.
>> Another match goes back to a woman in Floyd County, KY, who very well
>> might link descend from a daughter of Lucy Thompson & Charles Skaggs. I
>> have received no responses so far, from any submitter.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Herb <>
>> To:
>> Sent: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 1:58 am
>> Subject: Re: [SKAGGS] Genetic Origins of Lucy THOMPSON who md. Charles
>> SKAGGS, c1740-1811
>>
>>
>> Good work!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 05:48 AM
>> Subject: [SKAGGS] Genetic Origins of Lucy THOMPSON who md. Charles
>> SKAGGS,c1740-1811
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Several weeks ago I found a distant cousin of mine who was a descendant
>>> of
>>> Nancy SKAGGS, 1763-1840, who married Joseph MEREDITH. This would not be
>>> unusual, given that I have identified over 34,000 of her descendants so
>>> far. The interesting part of his tree was that this man inherited the
>>> mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA of Nancy SKAGGS and her mother Lucy THOMPSON.
>>> Lucy THOMPSON was his mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's, mother's,
>>> mother.
>>>
>>> mtDNA is transmitted from a Mother to her children. Her daughters pass
>>> it
>>> on to their children, but her sons do not. Because his lineage to Lucy
>>> THOMPSON was from female-to-female, all the way back to Lucy, her mtDNA
>>> had been transmitted to him.
>>>
>>> The thought of testing Lucy's mtDNA was particularly enticing to me,
>>> because there has been much speculation over the years that Lucy's
>>> mother
>>> (Mary who married John THOMPSON) might have been Native American.
>>> Testing
>>> Lucy's mtDNA would provide conclusive evidence of Lucy's maternal
>>> lineage.
>>> So...
>>>
>>> Lucy THOMPSON had a Mitochondrial Haplogroup of U5, and probably more
>>> specifically, U5b, or U5b2. The ancestral mother of Haplogroup U has
>>> been
>>> dubbed "Ursula." Below are some links to familiarize you with these
>>> terms.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29#Haplogroup_U5
>>> http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-mtdna.htm
>>> http://www.brian-hamman.com/WelcomeToTheClanUrsulaHomePage.html
>>> https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf-docs/mt_migrationmap.pdf
>>> https://www.familytreedna.com/pdf-docs/tr_mtDNAPlus.pdf
>>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2858207/figure/pone-0010285-g001/
>>>
>>> In short, Lucy THOMPSON's maternal heritage goes back to one of the
>>> oldest
>>> Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups in Europe. Native American Mitochondrial
>>> DNA
>>> (Haplogroup A, B, C, or D) is completely different than Lucy's.
>>>
>>> Ego, Lucy THOMPSON's mother, Mary, was NOT Native American, and neither
>>> was her maternal grandmother. Moreover, unless John THOMPSON, b. est.
>>> 1710, had a Native American parent (which seems unlikely given other
>>> available evidence), we can now say that Lucy THOMPSON and her SKAGGS
>>> children were NOT of any Native American ancestry.
>>>
>>> Bill Vincent
>>> SKAGGS Listowner
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>> quotes
>>> in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>
>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the
>> body
>> of
>> the message
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes
>> in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body
> of
> the message
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message





This thread: