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Archiver > STANLEY > 1997-07 > 0868726672


From: "Robert T. ("Bob") Strong, Jr." <>
Subject: The Quaker's Method of Recording Calendar Dates [ERRATA]
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 16:57:52 +0000


Hi to all my friends on the Stanley Mail List! I hope to soon
rejoin you but at a more slow pace. Things have been a little
hectic the past few months with the demise of the Surname Mail
Lists on the Mail Server [MAISER] at the University of Indiana,
the interim period in which I managed the Strong Mail List by
direct E-mail correspondence within the constrants of JUNO's
limits, the transition to the Rootsweb List Server, selecting
an Internet Service Provider, selecting a Web Browser,
selecting an Internet Message Editor, coordinating the planning
of a WWW homepage for the Strong Mail List (see footer),
taking a two week vacation and returning to play "catch up" for
the next couple of weeks, and then helping my adult daughter
move last week. This week things are beginning to return to
normal!

Please note my new E-Mail address. Also my Postal Zip Code has
recently changed to 35757.

=================================================

ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND COMMENTS:

The article quoted below was found on Andria Fiegal Wolfe's
homepage:
http://ww.panix.com/~andria/guaker.html

Andria Wolfe's E-Mail address is <>. In her
introductory comments, Andria Wolfe refers to Cheska Wheatley,
whose E-Mail address is <>. I have
personally corresponded with Cheska Wheatley in the past. Cheska
Wheatley appears to me to be one of the most knowledgeable
living authorities--at least on Fidonet Genealogy Conferences--
on Quaker genealogical records, methods and procedures for
researching Quakers, and the religious and social customs of
Quakers.

The article below answers my question about how to convert
NUMERICALLY FORMATTED Julian and/or "Old Style" dates in the
Quaker records to Gregorian and/or "New Style" dates.

THE CORRECT RULE: Add two months and 11 days to
numerically formatted dates that preceded 14 SEP 1752,
Gregorian, or to dates up to and including 2 SEP 1752, Julian.
[The dates from 3 SEP through 13 SEP, inclusive, never existed.]
If the Julian date fell between 1st day, 10th Month [JAN] and
24th day, 1st Month [MAR], then it was also necessary to advance
the date one year (that is, use the New Style date, when the
year was double dated.]

My error in the past was in assuming that February was the
eleventh month in the Quaker calendar, whereas the article below
indicates that February was the 12th month. (There seems to me
to be an incongruity between saying that 25 MARCH was the
beginning of the New Year, then saying that the period 1-24 MARCH
was in the first month! That anomoly is what confused me.)

John R. Mayer <> has recently been attempting
to educate me (on the Strong Mail List) about the conversion of
the calendar from Julian and/or Old Style to Gregorian and/or
New Style.

Mark one up for John R. Mayer!! He said, in effect, "leave
the dates alone", but added: if you insist on making a
conversion, the rule is to add eleven days to the Julian date
expressed with the name of the month spelled out. In a message
dated 9 JUL 97 he stated: " If you call February the eleventh
month, then March must become the twelfth month, when it was
not. March was the first month of the Julian calendar, but the
third month of the Gregorian."

In a message dated 6 JUL 97, John Mayer had commented about the
two month difference between the (numbers of the) months in the
Julian and Gregorian calendars:

"In the following list, the months appear juxtaposed to (1)
their manuscript abbreviations, and (2) their modern, Gregorian
equivalents. Again, the two-month shift in numbering reflects
the change in New Year from March to January."

"September : 7ber : /9/ : literally seventh month; the ninth
month of the Gregorian year; the seventh month of the Julian
calendar commencing in March. "

"October : 8ber : /10/ : literally eighth month; the tenth month
of the Gregorian year, or the eighth month numbered from March
in the Julian year."

I am a slow learner, but I am making a little progess!

My apologies to ALL on the Stanley Mail List for previously
posting an incorrect conversion rule. I thank John Mayer for
his patience and persistence in mentoring and stimulating me.

Robert T. ("Bob") Strong, Jr., Manager, Strong Mail List
119 Mystic Way, Madison, AL 35757
E-Mail:

==================================================
==================================================

"QUAKER" DATES

"When I started out on my own genealogical project, I began by
entering all of my grandmother's meticulous research into my
genealogy software. Encountering dates such as 12 da, 4mo 1660, I
blithely entered them into my computer as April 12, 1600!
Fortunately for me, one of my first correspondents - Cheska
Wheatley - happens to be an expert on Quaker genealogy and she
quickly set me straight. The following is what I received from
her, and I've found it to be very clear and useful!"

Andria Fiegal Wolfe

==================================================

"OUR QUAKER ANCESTORS
Finding Them in Quaker Records"

by Ellen Thomas Berry & David Allen Berry

From Chapter VII, QUAKER RECORDS AND SOME POSSIBLE
PROBLEMS, pg. 67 and 68:

"Another pitfall for the purist can be the unique way the
Quakers dated events. They did not use names for days of the week
or months of the year since most of these names were derived from
the names of pagan gods. A date such as August 19, 1748 will
never be found. Rather it would be written as "19th da 6th mo
1748." Sometimes this will be written as 6mo 19da 1748. Why 6th
month since August is the 8th month? The Quakers, along with
everyone else in the American Colonies and England, did not begin
using the Gregorian calendar until 1752. Under the Julian
calendar the year began on March 25th; March was the first month
and February was the twelfth month. This is something of a
problem when an event occurred in the months of January, February
or up to March 25th, for then the date is given as 1748/1749.
Such a dating practice satisfied everyone, including civil
authorities, if for instance an inheritance was being
established.

You may find that some legal documents will read "the 8th mo 5th
day 1748 in the month called October." It is disconcerting when a
date such as 30th da 11th mo 1722/1723 is found. The double year
indicates that the old calendar was in use. Even though the
Gregorian Calendar was adopted in 1582, as mentioned above it was
1752 before the change was universally accepted. We are
emphasizing this point here so that if exact days, months, and
years are wanted, the old Quaker records must be used with great
caution. Remember that until 1752 "1st mo" is March.

We would like to point out also that you may find secondary
material (genealogies are a case in point) in which the
compiler transcribed dates incorrectly - for instance. "30th da
11th mo 1738/1739" rewritten as "Nov. 30, 1738/39" when the date
in question is actually "30th January 1738/1739. The dual year
must be used until you are quite certain the locale in question
has adopted the Gregorian calendar (or until the Quaker records
no longer have the dual form or the year is after 1752). Dual
dating is applicable ONLY for the first three months (to 25
March) of the present calendar and NOT for the other nine months.
The first date given is the Julian year, the second the Gregorian
year."

Another way of finding whether the old Quaker method of dating is
being used in any given set of records is to search back and
forth until a month such as the "2nd mo" is found and the see if
entries were made on either the 29th or 30th days, If this was
done, then you will know the old system was being used and the
month would be the present month of April rather than February.
Other months can be used. For instance, if it is the "7th mo" and
you find the "31st," you would know the new system is being used
and the month is our present month of July rather than the Quaker
September."

----------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, before 1752, 11th month was January; 12th month
was February; 1st month was March; 2nd month was April and so on.

1752 and after, 1st month was January, 2nd month was February,
3rd month was March...just as we number the months today.

When recording dates found in Quaker records, it is preferred
practice to copy them as they are found and to record the source.
Too often, dates have been transformed incorrectly in secondary
sources and these dates should always be verified by the original
monthly meeting records.

If you are using a commercial data base which does not permit
entry of dates which reflect the manner in which they are found
in the original records, I recommend putting only the year in the
date field. In the next field where you would ordinarily enter
the name of a city or township, enter the date again but as it
was found. This can be followed by the name of the Monthly
Meeting where the date was recorded, followed by the State.

When you print a family group sheet or other chart your output
may look like this:

Mary Quaker
b. 1743 2 3m 1743 New Garden MM, NC
d. 1755 3 1m 1755 Deep River MM, NC
bur. 1755 5 1m 1755 Deep River FBG, NC

John Quaker
b. 1745/46 4 1m 1745/6 New Garden, MM, NC.

This may seem redundant, but to the recipient of your chart, it
will be abundantly clear that your source came from an original
church record and was not copied from the IGI or Ancestral File
which are notorious for incorrectly recording this type of
date."

===================================================
Visit the Strong Family Genealogy Homepage,
Bill Strong < >, Webmaster:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/5744
===================================================

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