Scotch-Irish-L Archives

Archiver > Scotch-Irish > 1998-02 > 0886904121-04

From: William F Shaughnessy< >
Subject: Re: Fw: The Irish in America
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 21:15:21 EST

On Fri, 06 Feb 1998 08:00:24 -0800 linda Merle <> writes:
>Bill said
>> It is a crying shame that the Plantation Undertakers didn't realize
>> by taking up residence in Northern Ireland they were converting
>> from Scotch to Irish.
><grin> From what I've read actually it was their expressed intent to
>convert them from Scots to Irish. The conversion of English to Anglo
>not outright "wild" Irish had been an issue of concern for centuries.
>is why laws were passed in the middle ages making intermarriage
>why Irish within the Pale were required to adopt English surnames and
>other English habits, why they were not allowed at some times to live
>within the Pale at all. Other than the distaste felt at this
>it had serious consequences and possibly cost the English the colony.
>Ie the Anglo Irish fought among themselves constantly. They destroyed
>enough of their own a number of times that not enough able men were
>left to defend and manage the colony.The last earl of Ulster was
>by Anglo Irish tennants --not Irish.
>"A History of Medieval Ireland" by A J OTway-Ruthven is the most
>and most detailed history I've read.
>What King James liked about the Scots is they didn't tend to merge
>and they were dependibly themselves. He depended on those traits to
>make the colony succeed. Down in the "felds" of
>the Ulster plantation where the priests and squires controled people,
>like in England, your "race" was carefully noted. It was noted in 1610
>when the Plantation was set up (see Hanna, the Scotch Irish - complete
>lists of the early grantees and their race) and even in 1831 (if I
>correctly) in the Carrickfergus courts your religion -- an
>for the "racial" marker but one that did practically separate the
>and the goats". Now...we don't do this in America
>today -- it's not significant. But it was made significant in Ulster
>design by King James. And even today -- what's the first thing you
>think when you hear someone was killed in NI? What's their religion,
>that's what. And then in your mind, unless you have done a bang up job
>of liberating yourself from King James' brainwashing, you know whether
>to feel really bad or just a little, or maybe just disgusted. But in
>case I suspect you do want to know the religious tag and it impacts
>resultant feelings.
>I think we've been brainwashed by King James.

And I think I've been royally snookered by one Linda Merle. <groan>

But, there is still an unanswered question. Why, if the so-called
Scotch-Irish are really Scots and not Irish at all, why do they persist
in being called Scotch-Irish? Is it perhaps a situation in which the
Scots would like to take full credit for all of the accomplishments if
the Irish in America? Or is it a question in which the Scots would like
to somewhat distance all of the non-funloving clergy that we are readins
so much about in the List over the past several days.

>> This was readily apparent in the New World which
>> considered all immigrants from Ulster to be Irish.
>Yes, but the folk in the Mass Bay Colony also thought the Indians were
>the Ten Lost Tribes. Neither consideration proves that the newcomers
>what they were claimed to be.
>And now in 1998 we need to acknowledge that most Ulsterfolk adopt one
>of two ethnic identities which history has given them little choice
>to do. And that the way forward is to acknowledge that and to find a
>way to forge a new identity -- which is inclusive of both ethniticies
>or some other solution which we cannot foresee because only our
>can. I don't find denying the ethnic problem's validity helpful.
>A new "Irish" ethnicity must evolve that is inclusive, not exclusive.
If anyone has some new and intruguing ideas on this last point,
please post it/them in this List. We do have ways to get good
suggestions to both sides of the questions at Stormont.


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