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Archiver > TMG > 2008-05 > 1209769877


From: "Michael J. Hannah" <>
Subject: Re: [TMG] Citation reference code proposal
Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 17:11:17 -0600
References: <mailman.1174.1209711718.19288.tmg@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1174.1209711718.19288.tmg@rootsweb.com>


On 5/2/2008 Teresa Elliott replied to Frankie:
> Depends on your definition of footnote. The way I see it
> there could be:
> 1) One footnote number with each of the citations separated
> by a semi-colon.
> 2) Multiple footnote numbers, one for each citation.
>
> > Would these footnotes be different for date, place and
> > memo, or would they be the same? - Frankie

I believe this highlights the core of the differences. What are the
definitions? I believe we are having a discussion where many of us are
operating with *different* definitions for the *same* term but
(mistakenly) thinking we all mean the same thing. Therefore I propose
definitions so we might use specific terms for this discussion to help
ensure that what we "mean" is accurately communicated (see below).

Using those definitions, I would assert that if the narrative is using
footnotes to present the reference notes that are citations, then each
reference note must have a unique note number, which is your option 2).
If you wish to have option 1) with only one note number referring to
information in multiple sources or to information in multiple locations
within a single source, then you must create a single reference note
that combines all of these. That single reference note will then have
its single unique note number. There are ways to create such a single
reference note as a single TMG citation. It would require constructing
a single TMG source that refers to multiple sources. But then that TMG
source and TMG citation would be as non-standard as long TMG sentence
templates with lots of different TMG roles or multiple concatenated TMG
tags for a single event <VBG/DR>.

Regardless of 1) or 2), currently the only way in TMG to have note
numbers appear interior to a narrative sentence is to use TMG "embedded"
citations or create multiple concantenated tags where the note numbers
for all the TMG "end-of-output" citations for each tag will appear at
the end of the partial narrative output from that tag. My proposal
would provide a way for the single note number for a TMG "end-of-output"
citation to appear in a single location anywhere interior to that tag's
output. It would avoid the current tedium of either TMG "embedded"
citations or splitting the output of a standard tag into multiple
concatenated custom tags. It also brings all the features of current
TMG "end-of-output" citations to these proposed TMG "interior" citations.

Currently a single TMG citation will not, and in my opinion should not,
produce multiple occurances of a note number in the narrative. This
shoudl apply whether we are talking about TMG unique endnotes (somewhat
like the Vancouver style) or TMG footnotes/non-unique endnotes (more
like the Mills/Chicago style). If you want to have multiple occurances
of a note number in the narrative you must create, and should continue
to need to create, separate TMG citations for each occurance of a note
number. Even with TMG unique endnotes which reuse the numeric value of
a note number, each occurance of a note number in the narrative is, and
I believe should be, a separate TMG citation that TMG causes to map to
the single presentation of the unique reference note at the end.

Michael

==================

I propose for the sake of this discussion we agree to use definitions
which I believe are based on Mills' book _Evidence Explained_ , the
_Chicago Manual_ , and TMG. We need to all be talking about the same
thing when we use a given term, like footnote. I suggest we need to
agree on the definitions for the following terms:
reference notes
note numbers
footnotes
endnotes and TMG unique endnotes
sources
citation
and TMG citations which include "embedded", "end-of-output"
and proposed "interior" citations

I propose the following definitions:

*Reference notes* - a note which is typically a citation that refers to
the specific *part* of a source that mentions the information included
within a narrative statement in this document. The note may be
presented as a footnote or endnote and each reference note has a unique
reference number.
page 43, section 2.4 -- Reference Notes
Whether presented as footnotes or endnotes we use these
in narrative writing to identify the source of _individual
statements_ . Reference notes should offer a _complete_
citation to the specific part of a source that provided
the information we are using, and they may provide other
relevant details about the source."

Reference *note numbers* - Each reference note is assigned a unique
reference note number which is printed at the beginning of the reference
note wherever the reference note is presented, whether as a footnote or
endnote. This note number is also placed within the document at the end
of a narrative statement is supported by this reference note.
page 63, Section 2.42, "Reference Numbers, Placement of":
note numbers within the text are typically placed at the end
of sentences, outside the closing punctuation mark

*Footnotes* - are reference notes that are presented at the foot of the
page where their reference note number appears in the narrative. When
presented as footnotes the note number is unique to each reference note
and not repeated in the text.
Chicago Manual, Entry 15.43
The same reference number should not be repeated in the text

*Endnotes* - are all the reference notes for a narrative presented at
the end of the narrative. For standard Chicago-style endnotes the note
number is unique to each reference note and not repeated in the text.
With *TMG unique endnotes* if a subsequent reference note citation is
identical in all its parts then that subsequent reference note will not
be presented/duplicated in the endnotes and the narrative will (re)use
the note number from the first identical reference note.

*sources* - the materials examined and used to collect the information
and come to the conclusions in the narrative. Sources are identified in
citations and/or source lists sufficiently that a reader can locate that
specific source. A source does not document any particular fact.
page 42, section 2.3
The term _citation_ is obviously not synonymous with the term
_source_ , and the two should not be used interchangeably.
page 43, section 2.4, Source Lists
As a master list of materials we have used, a source list
does not document any particular fact... its primary
purpose is to keep track of the materials that have
been examined and essential details about the nature
of those works.

*citation* - identifies one or more specific parts of one or more
sources and the specific statements in the source(s) concerning one set
of information. The identification is sufficient that the reader could
locate the specific part(s) within the source(s) if they had access to
the source(s).
page 42, section 2.3
Citations are statements in which we identify our source
or sources for a particular assertion... We may cite
multiple sources in a single citation. We may create
many citations for a single source -- each attached to
a specific statement that needs supporting evidence.

*TMG citation* - a combination of a reference to a single TMG source and
optional citation detail text and optional citation memo text. A single
TMG citation is identical to a single reference note, but the citation
is limited to a single TMG source. A TMG citation can be an "embedded"
citation using the special text codes or an "end-of-output" citation,
using the standard citation entry feature on the tag entry screen. The
proposal is to have a way to flag an "end-of-output" citation so that
its note number may be made to appear at a designated place "interior"
to the tag output rather than at the end-of-output.
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