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Archiver > TMG > 2008-05 > 1209823110


From: "Bill Bienia" <>
Subject: Re: [TMG] Citation reference code proposal
Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 09:58:57 -0400
References: <mailman.1174.1209711718.19288.tmg@rootsweb.com><481B9F95.6050505@nm.net>
In-Reply-To: <481B9F95.6050505@nm.net>


Michael,
While I agree in principle with your definitions, for discussions in the
context of footnotes or endnotes, the terms *reference note*, *citation*,
and *TMG citation* are pretty much identical and synonymous. I would suggest
that the term *reference note* be used in the context of footnotes and
endnotes, since *citation* can also refer to *source lists* and *source
labels* (Mills, EE, p 43, 2.4, Citations, Types of) and could cause
confusion with the Citation Detail/Citation Memo portion of a
*TMG-citation*. Using *reference note* eliminates these ambiguities. It also
fits with the suggested code [:REF:].

Another related topic that I haven't noticed being discussed is the concept
of merging several reference notes into one reference note. You introduced
that in your definition for *citations* when you quoted Mills p 42, 2.3
We may cite multiple sources in a single citation.
This concept is further developed by Mills on p 51-52, 2.20 Citing Several
Sources for a Single Fact.
Thorough research often yields multiple sources for the same
information. When we convert our notes into a narrative or permanent

database, we select the best evidence we have found. If several
sources for a fact are of equal value, we may cite all of them in
the
same reference note.
Essentially, several reference notes are concatenated together as separate
sentences within the single final reference note in the report. As far as
I've been able to determine, TMG does not presently do this - but it should.

The last point I would like to contribute is another location for the
placement of the _reference note_ number. Because of the flexibility in TMG
in using memo segments, we can create multiple sentences to reflect our tag
discussion. However, the basic name(s), event description (i.e. birth,
marriage, census enumeration, death, obituary, probate, etc.), date and
place data for the tag generally reside in the first sentence of a multiple
sentence output. From my perspective, the best place for the _reference
note_ number would be after the first period in the tag output, rather than
after the last period in the last sentence in a multiple sentence tag
output, which can span several paragraphs, if not pages - far away from that
initial sentence. With the new [:NP:] feature in v7, the _end of sentence_
would have to include a provision to insert the reference note number just
before where the [:NP:] is located if no punctuation is used to start the
next tag sentence or after the comma or semi-colon if punctuation is used -
even if it is the first printing character in the subsequent tag sentence.

Bill

Bill Bienia, PLCGS
www.CobblestoneLegacies.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:] On Behalf
> Of Michael J. Hannah
> Sent: 2-May-08 7:11 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [TMG] Citation reference code proposal
>
> On 5/2/2008 Teresa Elliott replied to Frankie:
> > Depends on your definition of footnote. The way I see it
> > there could be:
> > 1) One footnote number with each of the citations separated
> > by a semi-colon.
> > 2) Multiple footnote numbers, one for each citation.
> >
> > > Would these footnotes be different for date, place and
> > > memo, or would they be the same? - Frankie
>
> I believe this highlights the core of the differences. What are the
> definitions? I believe we are having a discussion where many of us are
> operating with *different* definitions for the *same* term but
> (mistakenly) thinking we all mean the same thing. Therefore I propose
> definitions so we might use specific terms for this discussion to help
> ensure that what we "mean" is accurately communicated (see below).
>
> Using those definitions, I would assert that if the narrative is using
> footnotes to present the reference notes that are citations, then each
> reference note must have a unique note number, which is your option 2).
> If you wish to have option 1) with only one note number referring to
> information in multiple sources or to information in multiple locations
> within a single source, then you must create a single reference note
> that combines all of these. That single reference note will then have
> its single unique note number. There are ways to create such a single
> reference note as a single TMG citation. It would require constructing
> a single TMG source that refers to multiple sources. But then that TMG
> source and TMG citation would be as non-standard as long TMG sentence
> templates with lots of different TMG roles or multiple concatenated TMG
> tags for a single event <VBG/DR>.
>
> Regardless of 1) or 2), currently the only way in TMG to have note
> numbers appear interior to a narrative sentence is to use TMG "embedded"
> citations or create multiple concantenated tags where the note numbers
> for all the TMG "end-of-output" citations for each tag will appear at
> the end of the partial narrative output from that tag. My proposal
> would provide a way for the single note number for a TMG "end-of-output"
> citation to appear in a single location anywhere interior to that tag's
> output. It would avoid the current tedium of either TMG "embedded"
> citations or splitting the output of a standard tag into multiple
> concatenated custom tags. It also brings all the features of current
> TMG "end-of-output" citations to these proposed TMG "interior" citations.
>
> Currently a single TMG citation will not, and in my opinion should not,
> produce multiple occurances of a note number in the narrative. This
> shoudl apply whether we are talking about TMG unique endnotes (somewhat
> like the Vancouver style) or TMG footnotes/non-unique endnotes (more
> like the Mills/Chicago style). If you want to have multiple occurances
> of a note number in the narrative you must create, and should continue
> to need to create, separate TMG citations for each occurance of a note
> number. Even with TMG unique endnotes which reuse the numeric value of
> a note number, each occurance of a note number in the narrative is, and
> I believe should be, a separate TMG citation that TMG causes to map to
> the single presentation of the unique reference note at the end.
>
> Michael
>
> ==================
>
> I propose for the sake of this discussion we agree to use definitions
> which I believe are based on Mills' book _Evidence Explained_ , the
> _Chicago Manual_ , and TMG. We need to all be talking about the same
> thing when we use a given term, like footnote. I suggest we need to
> agree on the definitions for the following terms:
> reference notes
> note numbers
> footnotes
> endnotes and TMG unique endnotes
> sources
> citation
> and TMG citations which include "embedded", "end-of-output"
> and proposed "interior" citations
>
> I propose the following definitions:
>
> *Reference notes* - a note which is typically a citation that refers to
> the specific *part* of a source that mentions the information included
> within a narrative statement in this document. The note may be
> presented as a footnote or endnote and each reference note has a unique
> reference number.
> page 43, section 2.4 -- Reference Notes
> Whether presented as footnotes or endnotes we use these
> in narrative writing to identify the source of _individual
> statements_ . Reference notes should offer a _complete_
> citation to the specific part of a source that provided
> the information we are using, and they may provide other
> relevant details about the source."
>
> Reference *note numbers* - Each reference note is assigned a unique
> reference note number which is printed at the beginning of the reference
> note wherever the reference note is presented, whether as a footnote or
> endnote. This note number is also placed within the document at the end
> of a narrative statement is supported by this reference note.
> page 63, Section 2.42, "Reference Numbers, Placement of":
> note numbers within the text are typically placed at the end
> of sentences, outside the closing punctuation mark
>
> *Footnotes* - are reference notes that are presented at the foot of the
> page where their reference note number appears in the narrative. When
> presented as footnotes the note number is unique to each reference note
> and not repeated in the text.
> Chicago Manual, Entry 15.43
> The same reference number should not be repeated in the text
>
> *Endnotes* - are all the reference notes for a narrative presented at
> the end of the narrative. For standard Chicago-style endnotes the note
> number is unique to each reference note and not repeated in the text.
> With *TMG unique endnotes* if a subsequent reference note citation is
> identical in all its parts then that subsequent reference note will not
> be presented/duplicated in the endnotes and the narrative will (re)use
> the note number from the first identical reference note.
>
> *sources* - the materials examined and used to collect the information
> and come to the conclusions in the narrative. Sources are identified in
> citations and/or source lists sufficiently that a reader can locate that
> specific source. A source does not document any particular fact.
> page 42, section 2.3
> The term _citation_ is obviously not synonymous with the term
> _source_ , and the two should not be used interchangeably.
> page 43, section 2.4, Source Lists
> As a master list of materials we have used, a source list
> does not document any particular fact... its primary
> purpose is to keep track of the materials that have
> been examined and essential details about the nature
> of those works.
>
> *citation* - identifies one or more specific parts of one or more
> sources and the specific statements in the source(s) concerning one set
> of information. The identification is sufficient that the reader could
> locate the specific part(s) within the source(s) if they had access to
> the source(s).
> page 42, section 2.3
> Citations are statements in which we identify our source
> or sources for a particular assertion... We may cite
> multiple sources in a single citation. We may create
> many citations for a single source -- each attached to
> a specific statement that needs supporting evidence.
>
> *TMG citation* - a combination of a reference to a single TMG source and
> optional citation detail text and optional citation memo text. A single
> TMG citation is identical to a single reference note, but the citation
> is limited to a single TMG source. A TMG citation can be an "embedded"
> citation using the special text codes or an "end-of-output" citation,
> using the standard citation entry feature on the tag entry screen. The
> proposal is to have a way to flag an "end-of-output" citation so that
> its note number may be made to appear at a designated place "interior"
> to the tag output rather than at the end-of-output.
> ==========================

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