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Archiver > WLS-CARDIGANSHIRE > 2004-02 > 1076843633


From: "Gareth" <>
Subject: Re: [WLS-CGN] Anna Germancy of Wales? (cross-posting)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:13:53 -0000
References: <033b01c3f2a9$846fa550$6500a8c0@PRESTON1> <001501c3f346$e5d5a4f0$621d87d8@Kathiandfamily> <03f601c3f358$ce82b510$6500a8c0@PRESTON1>


Julie suggested
<you need to find out where "Rhyd-y-dorth" is
(probably Cardiganshire).

Rhyd is a ford, dorth is a loaf (mutated torth).
More likely dorth should read borth (mutated porth), which is a doorway,
port etc.

Rhyd-y-borth sounds right and also vaguely familiar but I can't see it it on
my maps of the Borth area in CGN .

Gareth
List administrator for DYFED, CGN & PEM
Genuki Wales http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/
Lookup Exchange http://home.clara.net/tirbach/lookup.html
Help Page http://home.clara.net/tirbach/hicks.html
.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Preston" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WLS-CGN] Anna Germancy of Wales? (cross-posting)


>
> Kathi,
>
> In the book I mentioned, "Calvinists Incorporated", this family is
mentioned
> in the listing and it clearly states Anne was of "Rhyd-y-dorth". This
> pertains to the David Jones and wife Anne who emigrated in 1838 from
> Benglog, Llandeiniol. This lists children as: Mary, John D.W., David,
> Margaret and sister [presumably the sister of David] Ann. If "Anna" (nee
> Jerman?) is this David's wife, you need to find out where "Rhyd-y-dorth"
is
> (probably Cardiganshire).
>
> The children born in the 1830's wouldn't have fallen (within the IGI)
under
> the presupposed patronymic system so would've been listed with the
parents'
> proper surname.
>
> Have you purchased "Welsh Family History, A Guide to Research" (2nd
edition,
> pub. 1998), Ed. by John & Sheila Rowlands, ISBN 1 86006 065 X, pub. by
the
> Federation of Family History Societies and the authors? If you haven't, I
> *strongly* recommend you do. You can purchase it online from
> www.genealogybookshop.com
> This book explains the peculiarities of Welsh research, including the
> problems involved with the IGI for Wales.
>
> JERMAN is not equivalent to HERMAN -- no.
>
> From "The Surnames of Wales" (also by John & Sheila Rowlands:
>
> "JARMAN
> Jarman is a variant of German, from the Latin 'germanus', 'kinsman'. An
> older pronuciation of modern English '-er' is '-ar'....and the same name
is
> found as Jermin, Jermyn/e. Examples of the latter are found in
> Pembrokeshire: Alson and John Jermyn are in Gumfreston (Pembrokeshire) in
> 1543; the name is found widely in Narberth hundred throughout 17C. In the
> eastern border counties, the name is also long-established: Giles Jerman,
> Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire, appears on a 1596 tax list (E.R. Morris,
1982)
> and the name spread in Montgomeryshire and Radnorshire.
> 1813-37: Found fairly widely across mid Wales and down into
Monmouthshire.
> It is particularly prominent on the border between Montgomeryshire
> (Llanidloes 2%) and Radnorshire (Rhaeadr 0.7%)."
>
> So, actually, this gives you another angle since the name was also found
in
> Pembrokeshire (Narberth hundred) if you don't find anything in
> Montgomeryshire.
>
> As for the names of the sons and looking for David's baptism, it would
make
> sense for the first-born to have been named after his father so, going on
> that assumption (with nothing else to go on), you'd be looking for a
baptism
> in the IGI of a David Jones, son of anyone with the first name John (i.e.,
> John = Jones) and probably the surname Jones.
>
> You've got it for Anna -- Anna (Anne)DAVIES/DAVID, daughter of anyone with
> the first name of David but, hopefully, with the surname JERMAN (or
> variant).
>
> Have you found the baptisms in Wales for the 4 sons you've named? You
> really should locate those baptisms *and* the marriage entry of this
couple
> before going on to look for the baptisms of David Jones and Anna Jerman.
> Any children born after July 1837 will have Anna's maiden name in the
entry.
> Their marriage presumably took place prior to July 1837 so won't have
their
> fathers' names but you'll now have something to look for if her surname
> really was JERMAN.
>
> Always work backward through available documentation and don't skip
events.
> Believe me, I say that in all humility, having made every possible mistake
> known to researchers in my early days of this!
>
> Good luck.
>
> Regards,
>
> Julie Preston
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kathi and Jim Elliott" <>
> To: "Julie Preston" <>
> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 5:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [WLS-CGN] Anna Germancy of Wales? (cross-posting)
>
>
> > Julie, you have not "further confused me", you have given me the first
> > "a-ha" moment in a long time in this research!! Yes, of course I was
> aware
> > of the patronymic naming system, but I had not thought to apply it.
> > (Feeling a little foolish, but overwhelmingly excited about applying
this
> to
> > the families I haven't been able to trace!
> >
> > The one family that a distanst cousin DID trace back to the farm
"Benglog"
> > in Llanddeiniol in the early 1800's did not seem to be doing this when
> the
> > first "batch" of children were born, but they weren't born until 1833,
so
> it
> > makes perfect sense!
> >
> > Additionally, you have explained it more clearly than anything I have
> read,
> > so THANK YOU!!
> >
> > Yes, I have wondered about that "Benjamin Franklin" part myself! If
their
> > family was all in tact in the 1850 census of Gallia County, their first
> son
> > was John, and the second was David, third was Daniel and fourth was
> > Benjamin. So, if I understand what you have said, I should look first
for
> > Anna Davies/Davis, right? Born to David Jerman/Jarman.
> >
> > Is Jarman?Jerman equivilent to our "Herman"?
> >
> > And the father of Benjamin and all was named David Jones, so I am to
> assume
> > I am looking for David Jones, son of John Jones? Or have I got that
part
> > wrong?
> >
> > Sorry for so many questions! It's just that I am so excited about what
> this
> > might mean for breaking through a couple of my "brick walls
> >
> > Thanks, again,
> > Kathi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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