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Archiver > WLS-RADNORSHIRE > 2005-11 > 1131228154


From: "Julie Preston" <>
Subject: Re: [WLS-RAD] Thomas Joseph - Llanerhangel [Llanfihangel] (c1775)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 17:02:34 -0500
References: <000001c5e24b$e2c17140$0b01a8c0@Shuttle>


John,

You're welcome -- you'll find people use "Radnor" when referring to the shire as well as to the town(s).

I appreciate what you're saying as to the possibility of your great-grandmother being Jewish and perhaps her looks gave rise to the theory. Here in the U.S., it's very common to hear people claim they have "Cherokee" (or other Native American Indian) ancestry when there is usually nothing at all to the claim but their grandmother was dark and had very prominent cheekbones, etc. ;-)

Consider this paragraph from "The Surnames of Wales", by John & Sheila Rowlands, pub. 1996 by the Federation of Family History Societies (Publications) Ltd., Birmingham:

"JOSEPH - Joseph is yet another example of a biblical name unfamiliar in med. Wales but taken up after the Reformation. It seems likely that it represents Joseph the son of Jacob and Rachel (OT), rather than any of the three NT bearers of the name. After its relatively late adoption, it became an infrequent but not uncommon patronymic surname. (See also Fig. 6-1.)
1817-37 (V): A surname which is found right across south Wales with the exception that it is totally absent from Pembrokeshire. It usually has a low level of incidence but is fairly strong in parts of Glamorgan (most notably Newcastle, 0.61%).
Guppy: South Wales, 0.22%."

As you can see, nothing is said to indicate the JOSEPH surname in Wales is/was Jewish.

The IGI is *far* from complete for Radnorshire (or anywhere in Wales) and presumes patronymic surnames prior to 1813 but there is definitely evidence of a handful of families in various parishes -- if one only goes by marriages pre-1800, for instance -- with the surname JOSEPH. The only problem here is that the sources cited for these pre-1800 marriages are not parish registers or Bishop's Transcripts so one needs to be wary and find corroborative documentation. I'm including a post-1800 marriage with proper sourcing, as well.

Using the IGI to look for all JOSEPH events in all Welsh counties produces results that show a preponderance of the surname in Carmarthenshire and Glamorganshire (over 100 entries each) with a few entries in other counties.

Edward JOSEPH
marr. Mary JONES
16 July 1816
Abbey Cwmhir, Radnorshire
LDS Film #0104558 (BT's)
Batch #M057571 Note: Checking this batch # only yields a few marriages and only this one JOSEPH marriage. Might be worth having a look at the entire film.

Mary JOSEPH
marr. Edward THOMAS
09 Nov. 1756
Cefnllys, Radnorshire
Source: Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church

Richard JOSEPH
marr. Elinor BOWEN
09 March 1796
Beguildy, Radnorshire
Source: Form submitted by a member of the LDS Church

Ann JOSEPH
marr. Edward LLOYD
07 May 1799
Nantmel, Radnorshire
Source: Form submitted by member of the LDS Church


You might want to look for other sources -- land tax assessments, wills, etc.

I wish you luck!

Regards,

Julie Preston

----- Original Message -----
From: John Hopkins
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 3:59 PM
Subject: [WLS-RAD] Thomas Joseph - Llanerhangel [Llanfihangel] (c1775)


Thank you to both Julie Preston and Paul Irving for your replies.

I was not aware that the 1841 Gloucestershire census was available on line,
so thank you Paul - there are some Hopkins, Powell, Cullis, and Joseph
searches I can continue there. And I think the clear description of Thomas
Joseph as being an accountant does solve that possible confusion.

Secondly, Julie, I was aware that there were a number of Llanfihangels in
Radnorshire. I think my reason for picking on Ll. Nant Melan was the result
of a confusion in my mind when someone on another list referred to Radnor
(rather than Radnorshire), and I assumed the Llanfihangel closest to New and
Old Radnor was likely to be the one! Difficult to sort this out half a world
away...

Thirdly, whilst you may be correct about the Joseph name Julie, the family
have always been quite particular about the "fact" that my great grandmother
was Jewish. Perhaps it is a myth, founded in a stereotyping of the name, and
reinforced by her Semitic appearance. The Semitic appearance descends
through the family, to the extent that my nickname at work (behind my back I
may add) was The Rabbi (...this from people who knew nothing of my family
history, be it true or false). Of course the older generations who knew her
have all gone now, but my father, uncles and aunts, and all their cousins
were certain she was Jewish. Who knows now? Your caution is quite fair.

Thank you both.

John

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