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From:
Subject: Need help: Re: Capt. John Woodief & family
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:34:34 EST


My purpose for this email: It seems, from what records I have, there is
definitely some mangling/incorrect information/connections somewhere, that I am
definitely / desperately trying to solve. My purpose is to make sure I have
unquestionable documentation that our immigrant ancestor, Capt. John Woodlief,
Sr [b: 1584] connects to Drew > to Ann Drury [& Robert Woodlief] our link
with Royalty, before I enter all of Ann's ancestors from her g-mother, Ann
Calthrope, back to 1240 b.c. Please help if you can?

Controversial/Discrepancy Issues:
1. 1580: John Woodlefe [sic] is the fourth from the last of twenty entries
under the heading Anno Domini 1580 of the Dinton Parish Register of
christenings, marriages, and burials found in the Buckinghamshire Records Office,
Aylesbury (Microfilm M13/750).
However, per Ann Woodlief: Woodlief Thomas sent her a copy of that
microfilm VERY hard to read), and it says Anno Domini 1584; the name John Woodlefe
is 4th from the last there. I have no idea where 1580. [Kathlynn insert:
Customarily parents are named???? However, PARENTS WERE NOT NAMED].

1a. 1584: Records at Church of St. Peter and St. Paul-Dinton,
Buckinghamshire, England [still standing relatively unchanged] "John Woodlefe [sic] was
christened on the 27th December 1584." [Parents were not named].

1b. From Ann Woodlief: Per John Bennett Boddie, "Virginia Historical
Genealogies" (1954). [Sometimes he makes mistakes, but he has documented the
following]. "Robert Woodliffe of Peterley, Buckingham, was the son of Nicholas
Woodliffe (Vis. Bucks 1566, Harleian, Vol. 58, p. 228). He married first Jane,
daughter of Roger Smith, who died without issue. He married secondly, Anne,
daughter of Sir. Robert Drury of Edgerley Bucks, a younger son of Sir. Robert
Drury of Hawsted, Suffolk, Speaker of the House of Commons (Burke's Extinct
Baronetcies, p. 169). (Coppinger's Manors of Suffolk, vol 7, p. 35) (Dict. Nat.
Biography, vol 6, p. 57). In 1552 the manor of Stonors in Bucks was sold by
Dorothy Verney to Robert "Woodlast" and William Howse (Vict. Hist. Bucks.
vol 2, p. 332). In 1551 Geoffrey Dormer conveyed the manor of Peterley to
Robert Woodliffe, but probably for a term of years only, as Robert Dormer, his
grandson, held it in 1580. In 1557 Robert Woodliffe settled Peterley upon
himself and Anne Drury whom he was about to marry. He died in 1593 and was
succeeded by his son Drew who in 1596 joined with his mother in conveying their
interest in the manor to Sir Robert Dormer (Do. Vol 2, p. 350). Children are
listed, including Thomas, Drew, and John, all of whom are listed as Oxford
Alumni, and Victorian History of Bucks. [from Ann Woodlief: By the way, I see that
Boddie has John as the brother and not the son of Drew Woodliffe. As I say,
he makes errors!].
*******************************************
Kathlynn questions:
1. Is it possible #1 is John son of Robert Woodlief/Ann Drury i.e. brother
to Drew [hereby, making #1b: 1580 correct]?
2. Thence, #1a is our Capt. John Sr. b:1584 at Peterly Manor,
Buckinghamshire, England [per SWS] ?
[which appears everyone seems to have the 1584 b: date for
him - including the
source I use i.e. descendant/researcher Susan Wallace
Simpson Records,
hereafter referenced as SWS, including Royalty ancestors
back to 1240 BC,
which I am currently entering on my database and
validating/adding from
Laurence Gardner's book, titled Bloodline of the Holy
Grail, The Hidden
Lineage of Jesus Revealed-2001-2002 - Revised and Expanded
edition. Laurence has written several books recently,
I found mine at Barnes
& Nobles, I encourage/recommend all descendants/everyone
to read all of
his wonderful/educational books, especially the above
one, all have genealogy
charts].
*******************************************
2. Sandy wrote in 2002: According to earlier Woodlief research by Eliz. Ann
Taylor Kerman, Capt. John Woodlief (of Prestwood, Buckinghamshire,and later of
VA) married on 01 May 1609 in Steventon, Berkshire, to Mary ARCHARD.

2a. Per Sandy [same as below]: IGA - Steventon, Berks records lists the
marriage of a John Woodleffe to Mary Archard 01 May 1609......but it also lists
two baptisms in Steventon of children who possibly would be of this same John
Woodleffe (however, the mother's name is not listed), i.e.: John Woodleffe,
son of John, bapt 29 Sept 1609
William Woodleffe, son of John, bapt 18 Jan 1613

2a. Conversely, per Ann Woodlief's web site [she states much of this info
was originally collected by Woodlief researcher Elizabeth Anne Kerman Taylor -
compiled and updated by Ann], has "John Woodlief and Mary Archard were
married 1/15/1609 at Steventon, Buckinghamshire, England [There was an
Archer/Archard family connected with the Virginia Company, so there is probably a tie
there]."

2b. And per SWS records they m: Jan 5, 1609 at Steventon, Buckinghamshire,
England.
***************************************
Kathlynn Questions: Opinions anyone?
1. Could it be that the date was simply transposed? If so which date is
correct?
2. Or, to reiterate, were there two different John Woodlief, one m: Jan 5,
1609 in Steventon, Buckinghamshire and one m: May 1, 1609 in Steventon, Berks.
***************************************
***************************************
Previously correspondence between Sandy and Kathlynn - posted 2/10/2002 -
Sandy writes: Woodlief Family Genealogy Forum [message board]
_http://genforum.genealogy.com/woodlief/index.html_
(http://genforum.genealogy.com/woodlief/index.html)
Does anyone know the basis for the assumption that the John
Woodlief who married in Steventon, Berkshire, is one and the same as the Capt John
Woodlief of Prestwood, Buckinghamshire and (later) Virginia? I've not run
across any evidence to link the two and am wondering if anyone else has.
Has anyone run across a record which indicates even so much as
the first name of Capt John Woodlief's wife?
Regarding Steventon, Berks, records, the IGI lists the marriage
of a John Woodleffe to Mary Archard 01 May 1609......but it also lists two
baptisms in Steventon of children who possibly would be of this same John
Woodleffe (however, the mother's name is not listed), i.e.: John Woodleffe, son of
John, bapt 29 Sept 1609
William Woodleffe, son of John, bapt 18 Jan 1613
Absent information to link the John Woodleffe in Steventon, Berks
to Prestwood, Buckinghamshire, I am inclined to think these are two
different people. I'd be interested in anyone else's thoughts or additional data.
Thanks, Sandy

[2002 Kathlynn writes: I currently have on my database Capt. John Woodlief
Sr b: 1584 at Peterly Manor, Prestwood England m: JANURARY 5, 1609 in
Steventon, Buckinghamshire, England to Mary Archard b: abt. March 17, 1583. Their son
Capt. John Jr. b: 1614 in _______? England [no documentation - obtained from
another persons website records - factually SWS]. Mary died before
children were grown...John Jr was given a guardian in 1616.
[NOTE SON JOHN'S 1614 BORN DATE IS QUESTIONABLE - SEEMS HIGHLY UNLIKELY
{DURING THIS TIME PERIOD} THAT A COUPLE WOULD NOT HAVE THEIR FIRST CHILD UNTIL
FIVE YEARS AFTER THEY WERE MARRIED].

If they are the same John's and he m: May 1, 1609 [per IGI] and son John
was baptized Sept 29, 1609 [babies are usually a few wk.'s or mth's. old before
they are baptized] then they conceived son John before they were married and
he was born 3 to 5 months after they marrried. However, if the January m:
date I have is correct [from another persons web site records-factually from
SWS] then the birth of son John would be almost be 9 mos. later [IF he were
baptized soon after he was born].

Conversely, if they are different Johns.....That would mean they both m: in
1609 [one m: Jan 5, 1609 in Steventon, Buckinghamshire and had son John, and
one m: May 1, 1609 in Steventon, Berks and had son John.

QUESTION:
1. Are these two different county? locations, or did someone make a mistake,
or could one location be referred to two different ways? Or was there an
area location name change between Jan and May of 1609? Or simple part of
Steventon is in Buckinghamshire & part in Berks [are they referred to as
Counties?}. I know this was, and still is, the situation in my home town. The town is
located on the line of two different counties. So could Peterly Manor be in
Buckinghamshire and nearby, or across the street, is the Church in Steventon
Co?

2. If they are two different John's then which one m: Mary Archard? And
which one is our immigrant ancestor?
********************************************
Kathlynn's current questions:
1. Has anyone found any documentation yet, that our Capt John's wife was
Mary Archard?
2. Does anyone have a William as their son? I don't.
*******************************************
3. Is it possible the John [per Broddie - son of Robert Woodlief/Ann Drury
and brother of Drew] is the John [above # 1] b:1580 [christened] and the John
that m: 01 May 1609 in Steventon, Berkshire, to Mary ARCHARD [per IGA and
Sandy] and the John that had sons John Woodleffe, bapt 29 Sept 1609 and William
Woodleffe, bapt 18 Jan 1613?

That would solve all of the issues listed above i.e. to reiterate - Points
of discernment:
1. If it was our Capt. John that m: Mary Archard in May 1, 1609 and the
John, baptised Sept 29, 1699 is their son that would mean he was born very soon
after they married [to have been christened, 29 of Sept].
2. It would still be the case, if the marriage date of Jan 1, 1609 is
correct then son John b: Sept 29, was born before 9 mos later [if he was baptized
in Sept] Usually a baby is a few months old before their baptized...right? .
3. In either case it would also mean the 1614 born date we have for Capt.
John Sr. son, John Jr., is incorrect, which definitely sends up a red-flag,
because if their 1609 marriage date is correct, that means they were m: 5
years before having their first child, which is certainly possible, since it
appears she only had 2 children maybe she had difficulty conceiving, but quiet
unusual, especially for this time frame.

4. Another red flag. I assume Capt John brought his family with him on his
1st trip in 1608 based on the claim "made 2nd trip back to England & returned
to VA 1619. Already in Virginia were his wife, two children, and four
indentured servants." [per Ann's web site].
*****************************************************
Questiton: Is there documentation for this claim i.e. "wife and children
already in VA in 1619?
****************************************************
Bottom line: If the said documents are for John [s.o. Robert/Ann and bro of
Drew] and he was the one that m: Mary Archard and had sons John and
William...... then who where and when did our Capt John marry? Since he came first
in 1608/09 could he have married in VA?

Boy, I'm getting brain dead from overload, I hope I have articulated all of
this correctly. Please check me out carefully. Any help or opinions would
be greatly appreciated.
Kathlynn


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