Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2007-11 > 1196295528

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: [DNA-HG-I] Was y haplogroup I early in Europe?
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:18:48 -0700
References: <13062915.309941196274019054.JavaMail.www@wwinf2235><009401c831ed$822cbf80$6400a8c0@Ken1><3b2a446a0711281541saf5fb0an1b5508ca599a1c2a@mail.gmail.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sasson Margaliot" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Were R1 and N The Forefathers?

> Ken,
> It is very interesting concept. I think you already mentioned that idea
> before - can you share
> what makes you think so? At some time, Rs probably came from the East -
> did
> they find the Haplogroup I
> already present in Europe? In which location? And where from did the Is
> come?
> Sasson
> On Nov 28, 2007 8:35 PM, Ken Nordtvedt <> wrote:
>> .. Actually, I think a good case can be made that "I" folks came to
>> Europe before the R, but that's an argument for another day.
The I haplogroup probably was founded more to the southeast rather than
easteast. I1b* (I1 to FTDNA still), for example, is the oldest haplogroup
of I for which we
have a decent population showing up in the databases. It shows examples
from Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Georgia as well as the rest of Europe. So I
would not be surprised if I originated in Anatolia, for example.

The breakup of I into its many observed clades or haplogroups began about
25,000 years ago according to my WarpedFoundersTree which can be seen at my
website http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

The time depth of this tree is based on genetic distances between the
founders of the various I clades, and for which I have made initial attempts
to modify the GD measure to take into account back and multiple mutations of
each marker. Real mutation rates were used for 52 of the slower markers for
which we have data. About 6000 years was added to the founding of I1a to
get to the present.

All the known clades of I whose lines broke from each other about 25,000
years ago are primarily found in Europe. So I think saying the breakup
occured in Europe is not an unreasonable theory to work from. Haplogroup
I's many clades over-wintered in Europe.

Clades like I1b1-Isles which appear almost exclusively in British Isles, and
particularly Ireland, seem to show as much or more variance age as does
British Isles R1b1c.

F is another haplogroup which has a clade found at low levels throughout
Europe except for Scandinavia. It could have been an even earlier arriver
into the European peninsula of Eurasia. The F seen in Europe is most
probably just a fringe clade of total F.

This is my working theory; it certainly is not a demonstrated conclusion
yet. It would really be helpful to have more data from southeast Europe and
into Turkey and the Caucasus, etc.


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