Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2007-12 > 1197310327

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: [DNA-HG-I] Kittler Report --- Do a Kittler!
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:12:07 -0700

I wish more folks in much of haplogroup I would do the Kittler test which tells you which of your DYS385 repeats is located at which site in the ydna --- assuming the repeats are different. Below I tabulate the Kittler results I know of to date in each of the identified clades in haplogroup I. The list is sadly short. Kittler data is one of the cheapest and quickest ways that new clades can be discovered. After each clade name I give number of Kittler results which were high / low or low / high. Some clades I indicate with a # because they particularly might benefit from Kittler results. After the list I discuss a few issues. Clades with modal values at 385 of equal repeats are so indicated. Kittler tests would be particularly interesting for those who are in the clade but have 385 deviating from the modal.

Kittler tests can be obtained from FTDNA's advanced lab in Houston, reachable from FTDNA personal pages.

I1a-AS(generic and misc) 16 H / L

AS1 1 H / L
AS8 none
AS2 1 H / L
AS3 1 H / L
AS4 none
AS5 13-13 none
AS6 none
AS7E # none
AS9 1 H / L
AS10 2 H / L
AS13 none
AS1313 none
AS-EE 1 H / L

T2 3 H / L and 1 L / H
mavericks 2 H / L
M227+ # 14-14 2 H / L and 3 L / H
T13 1 H / L
ML 1 H / L
Bothnia # 14-14 1 H / L and 1 L / H

I1a - Norse 14-14
uN1315 # 1 L / H
uN(Norwegian) # 1 H / L
uN # 2 H / L and 1 L / H
NuN14 # 3 L / H


I1b1a -Sardinia 12-12 none
I1b1-Isles-A 1 L / H
Isles B none
Isles C none
Isles D none
I1b1-Dinaric 4 L / H
I1b1-Western 3 L / H

I1b* 2 L / H

I1b2* 3 H / L

I1b2a-Continental1 15-15 none
Continental2a 15-15 1 H / L and 1 L / H
Continental2b 1 L / H
Continental2c none
I1b2a3-Continental3 1 H / L and 1 L / H
I1b2a-Roots none
I1b2a1-Isles-Scot 2 H / L
Isles-English 1 L / H

F none

Clades for which there seems good evidence they descended from other clades with equal repeats at 385 are especially interesting, and that is why, for example, all the I1a-ultraNorse clades are marked with a #. Did they descend just once from parent clade with equal repeats? If so, then we might see comparable numbers of both Kittler orders in the offspring clade, actually leading to the possibility of more quickly separating the offspring clade into multiple clades. Haplotypes in a clade which normally has equal repeats at 385 should in my view always be Kittler tested if they deviate from the modality. This will lead to a more honest count of genetic distance between haplotypes in a clade, and again might help separate any subclades which emerge from the data.

A reminder again what the Kittler test measures. There are two sites in the ydna with repeat segments which are captured by DYS385 primers --- Site 1 and Site 2. The Kittler test tells you which of your repeats is located at which site. For instance: if you are 14-15 at DYS385, your 14 repeats could be at Site 1 with your 15 repeats at Site 2, or vice versa. Only the Kittler test tells you which --- the ordinary measurement does not. These two outcomes of Kittler order are a genetic distance of 2 from each other as GDs are conventionally measured.

The test costs about $20, depending on whether you have your dna already transfered to FTDNA's Houston lab. I urge haplogroup I folks to take this test in most cases. Haplogroup I is particularly "made for the Kittler" because so many of its clades have DYS385 repeats which are close together or equal.


This thread: