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Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2007-12 > 1197315017


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-HG-I] Kittler Report --- Do a Kittler!
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:30:17 -0700
References: <002401c83b58$2d2290e0$6400a8c0@Ken1><001801c83b5f$14544ca0$6401a8c0@bryandesktop>


I have you 1a - AS10 and noted to have your Kittler result. I better redo
my excel spreadsheet over the holidays.

Your DYS385 Kittler results were never "reversed". Before Kittler
measurements came along the testing companies still needed a convention to
report DYS385 results. They simply settled on the convention of reporting
repeats from lowest to highest in left to right order. So unless somehow
Kittler measurement is noted on a haplotype, you can tell nothing by the
low-to-high reporting in the databases.

Your 14 - 13 Kittler measurement is the overwhelming norm for I1a-AS as you
can see from my report. One other in AS10 was also high / low.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Cook" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA-HG-I] Kittler Report --- Do a Kittler!


> Hi Ken, my Kittler test for AS16 reversed DYS385a/b from 13/14 to 14/13.
> Am
> I in the 16 count under I1a-AS (generic and misc) H/L of your list or have
> others reported a Kittler test for AS16 clade? If so what were their
> results? Thanks, Bryan Cook FTDNA 79328, Y-Search 9HXQ4
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ken
> Nordtvedt
> Sent: December 10, 2007 1:12 PM
> To: ;
> Subject: [DNA-HG-I] Kittler Report --- Do a Kittler!
>
> I wish more folks in much of haplogroup I would do the Kittler test which
> tells you which of your DYS385 repeats is located at which site in the
> ydna
> --- assuming the repeats are different. Below I tabulate the Kittler
> results I know of to date in each of the identified clades in haplogroup
> I.
> The list is sadly short. Kittler data is one of the cheapest and quickest
> ways that new clades can be discovered. After each clade name I give
> number
> of Kittler results which were high / low or low / high. Some clades I
> indicate with a # because they particularly might benefit from Kittler
> results. After the list I discuss a few issues. Clades with modal
> values
> at 385 of equal repeats are so indicated. Kittler tests would be
> particularly interesting for those who are in the clade but have 385
> deviating from the modal.
>
> Kittler tests can be obtained from FTDNA's advanced lab in Houston,
> reachable from FTDNA personal pages.
>
> I1a-AS(generic and misc) 16 H / L
>
> AS1 1 H / L
> AS8 none
> AS2 1 H / L
> AS3 1 H / L
> AS4 none
> AS5 13-13 none
> AS6 none
> AS7E # none
> AS9 1 H / L
> AS10 2 H / L
> AS13 none
> AS1313 none
> AS-EE 1 H / L
>
> T2 3 H / L and 1 L / H
> mavericks 2 H / L
> M227+ # 14-14 2 H / L and 3 L / H
> T13 1 H / L
> ML 1 H / L
> Bothnia # 14-14 1 H / L and 1 L / H
>
> I1a - Norse 14-14
> uN1315 # 1 L / H
> uN(Norwegian) # 1 H / L
> uN # 2 H / L and 1 L / H
> NuN14 # 3 L / H
>
> -----------------------------
>
> I1b1a -Sardinia 12-12 none
> I1b1-Isles-A 1 L / H
> Isles B none
> Isles C none
> Isles D none
> I1b1-Dinaric 4 L / H
> I1b1-Western 3 L / H
>
> I1b* 2 L / H
>
> I1b2* 3 H / L
>
> I1b2a-Continental1 15-15 none
> Continental2a 15-15 1 H / L and 1 L / H
> Continental2b 1 L / H
> Continental2c none
> I1b2a3-Continental3 1 H / L and 1 L / H
> I1b2a-Roots none
> I1b2a1-Isles-Scot 2 H / L
> Isles-English 1 L / H
>
> F none
>
> Clades for which there seems good evidence they descended from other
> clades
> with equal repeats at 385 are especially interesting, and that is why, for
> example, all the I1a-ultraNorse clades are marked with a #. Did they
> descend just once from parent clade with equal repeats? If so, then we
> might see comparable numbers of both Kittler orders in the offspring
> clade,
> actually leading to the possibility of more quickly separating the
> offspring
> clade into multiple clades. Haplotypes in a clade which normally has
> equal
> repeats at 385 should in my view always be Kittler tested if they deviate
> from the modality. This will lead to a more honest count of genetic
> distance between haplotypes in a clade, and again might help separate any
> subclades which emerge from the data.
>
> A reminder again what the Kittler test measures. There are two sites in
> the
> ydna with repeat segments which are captured by DYS385 primers --- Site 1
> and Site 2. The Kittler test tells you which of your repeats is located
> at
> which site. For instance: if you are 14-15 at DYS385, your 14 repeats
> could be at Site 1 with your 15 repeats at Site 2, or vice versa. Only
> the
> Kittler test tells you which --- the ordinary measurement does not. These
> two outcomes of Kittler order are a genetic distance of 2 from each other
> as
> GDs are conventionally measured.
>
> The test costs about $20, depending on whether you have your dna already
> transfered to FTDNA's Houston lab. I urge haplogroup I folks to take this
> test in most cases. Haplogroup I is particularly "made for the Kittler"
> because so many of its clades have DYS385 repeats which are close together
> or equal.
>
> Ken
>
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