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Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2007-12 > 1197389732


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA-HG-I] Just 8 Male Ancestors 16,000 Years Ago
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:15:32 -0700
References: <651201.82119.qm@web83411.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


You can see the basis for this prediction from my warpedtree file at
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net. Go to the branch line leading to I1a.
At the comma to the right of M307 draw a vertical line. It cuts 8 branch
lines which eventually lead to various clades we see today making up the
great bulk of the European y haplogroup I population. Those eight men
consist of an

Ancestor of the I1a MRCA
Ancestor of the I1b2a MRCA
Ancestor of the I1b2* MRCA
Ancestor of the common MRCA for I1b*-A and I1b*-C
Ancestor of the I1b*-B MRCA
Ancestor of the I1b2a-Sardinia MRCA
Ancestor of the common MRCA for I1b1-Dinaric and I1b1-Isles
Ancestor of the I1b1-Western MRCA

I have left a 1 percent margin of non-totality for these eight ancestors at
that date to allow for various very ancient branch lines which branched off
before that date and still left tiny numbers of descendants today in our
population, but numbers of descendants tiny enough they have not been seen
yet in our databases.

This cut you drew on the tree was at about Year 8000 (from arbitrary
reference year). I estimate today being about Year 24,000

These are the eight of that date responsible for European I. Extended
haplotype databases which would cover Turkey, Greece, Caucasus, the Levant
as thoroughly as ours do Europe right now could very well show some new I
clades we have never seen.

Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Maus" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA-HG-I] Just 8 Male Ancestors 16,000 Years Ago


> Ken,
>
> This is an awesome prediction, although understandable. Based upon your
> conclusion, what do you suspect was the distribution of these eight males
> who lived 16,000 years ago. I'm wondering if these eight males are a fair
> representation of the larger sample that went extinct?
>
> John Maus
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ken Nordtvedt <>
> To: ;
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 6:14:46 PM
> Subject: [DNA-HG-I] Just 8 Male Ancestors 16,000 Years Ago
>
> A paper was quoted today on the list saying that European ancestry was
> particularly subject to past bottlenecks and most all Europeans can be
> traced to 50 males of some time period ago. Actually, I think all of
> modern man's time in Europe prior to the final breakup of the last glacial
> maximum could be considered something like a continuous bottlneck --- in
> the sense that the vast majority of the male lines of that era went
> extinct. Looking at my data from y haplogroup I, I think I'd be willing
> to make an argument for the following scenario:
>
> Almost every male today of European ancestry and of y haplogroup I (many
> tens of millions) is a descendant of one of 8 males who lived 16,000 years
> ago. "Almost every" in the previous sentence means over 99 percent.
>
> I think the quoted paper may have been talking autosomal ancestors, but I
> can't remember for sure.
>
> Ken
>
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