Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2008-04 > 1207263682

From: "Genealogie Fritsche" <>
Subject: [yDNAhgI] Angles, Saxons and Jutes
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 01:01:22 +0200
In-Reply-To: <026701c895c1$771d1300$6400a8c0@Ken1>

Hello all,

In your words, either "Anglo" and "Saxon" refer to England ...

The Germanic tribe of the Angles (in German: Angeln) lived in the
current German Schleswig-Holstein area where, near city of Kiel, until
today still exists a region called "Angeln" (meaning "land of the

Another Germanic tribe, the Saxons (in German: Sachsen), lived south
of the Anlges in the Holsatia (in German: Holstein) area north of Elbe
river. Over the centuries, they moved south to the flat countries
until the central German mountains and allied with the akin tribes
living there, as there were (by their Latin names) the Chauci (German:
Chauken), the Chamavi (Chamaven), the Amsivarii (Amsivarier) and some
more smaller tribes. Together they united to the powerful people of
the Saxons, and so a wide area is still called Lower Saxony
(Niedersachsen) today. Only the Frisian people, living west of the
Saxons, kept an independent status, until today, and also

The third tribe, the Jutes (in German: Jüten), lived north of the
Angles on the Jutland peninsula (still called Jütland after them, in
Danish: Jylland), the northern part of which nowadays belongs to

In the 4th / 5th century, more or less larger divisions and clans of
these three tribes (the majority of their population have stayed in
their homes on the mainland) moved to the Britannic island, supposedly
because of a series heavy natural disasters which made live harder and
harder there and caused people to move anywhere not to starve to
death, or maybe they had been called by Britiannic rulers - after the
fallback of the Romans and lost of the shelter of Rome - to help them
against invaders from the north, the Picts, or against pirates from
the shores (which tells us the story of Hengist and Horsa, two famous
but legendary leaders).

The Saxons settled in the south from east to west from estuary along
River Thames until Dorset and Somerset (the Dorsaetas and Somorsaetas
- Old Saxon "saetas" means "people settling, living there"), the
Angles stayed east and north in coastal areas until Humber river and
the Jutes settled on the Isle of Wight and in Kent. Altogether they
founded some, through the ages more or less short-lived, uniting and
dividing famous kingdoms, as there were for the Saxons Wessex (= Land
of the Western Saxons), Essex (= Land of the Eastern Saxons),
Middlesex (= Land of the Middle Saxons) and Sussex (= Land of the
Southern Saxons), for the Angles East Anglia (= Land of the East
Angles) with its divisions Norfolk (= Land of the northern part of the
people) and Suffolk (= Land of the southern part of the people),
Middle Anglia (= the Middle Angles) and the South Angles (east and
south of The Wash) and in Kent the Kingdom of the Kentishmen (the
Jutes). You can find a lot of maps showing these frequently changing
kingdoms, their come an go over the centuries until Alfred the Great
happened to unite the kingdoms.

It was mainly the former territory of the Anglian countries which was
annexed by the Danish later in the 8th century and later, and at many
coastal areas settled Norwegian people.

The name "England" has its origin in the Saxon and Old English term
"Aengelland" = "Land of the Angles", latinized to "Anglia". Also in
German, over centuries the name for England was "Engelland", and in
Danish still is Aengelland.

The developent of the English language: First there wer the similar
dialects of the Saxons (Old Saxon), the Angels (Old Anglian) and the
Jutes from the 4th / 5th century. In the 8th century, the west Saxon
(Wessex) dialect of Winchester already was a common language, called
Old English. And in spite of 500 years, Old English until 1066 still
was that similar to the Germanic dialects on the continent that people
from the island and the continent could communicate without major

Differences in British English dialects of today are mainly based on
the generally similar, but slightly different Germanic dialects of
these tribes. These Anglo-Saxon people must have kept intensive
contacts to their homeland and the related clans in northern Germany
and Jutland during a lot of generations, as archeologists and
linguists found out.

But then, in 1066, came the army of the meanwhile french-Romance
speaking Normans, lead by William the Conqueror. 300 years ago, these
Normans were Germanic Vikings of Danish origin who settled in
northwestern France in an area until today called Normandy after them.
They brought their Norman-Old French language to England which first
became the language of the upper class then, and the Saxon idiom first
remained the language of the lower, the conquered people. After the
time of conquest over some generations, these two very different
languages melted to Middle English and then to New English from the
16th century on. This is the reason why the English language since
then has a vocabulary of about 50 % Romance words (i. e. of Latin
origin) and of 50 % Germanic words. For instance, English has two
different words for the animal and its meat: The meat of the wether is
named mutton (French: mouton = wether), the meat of the pig is pork
(French: porc) and the meat of a cow is beef (French: boeuf = neat,
cattle), the meat of the calf is veal (French: veau).

<< The Germans when griping about the American/English economic model
would probably drop "Saxon" from the adjective Anglo-Saxon when
talking about the "roughness" of these non-continental ways of doing
things. >>

No, we don't. Besides this, the English and the American economic
models are indeed very different ...

"Anglo-American" for us first of all means the difference between the
languages: Anglo-America, Latinamerica, French speaking America
(remember Cajun Country or Acadiana!). "Anglo-Saxon" is only a term
for the origin of the English language, nothing more. So the
Anglo-Saxon world today means those countries speaking English. The
Francophonie is the French speking world.

Best regards from griping Germany.


Jürgen Fritsche
Taunusring 56, 63150 Heusenstamm
Forschungsprojekt "FRITSCHE/FRITZSCH/...-Datenbank":

Forschungprojekt "Sanitäts-Einheiten im 2. WK"

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
[mailto:] Im Auftrag von Ken
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. April 2008 21:33
Betreff: Re: [yDNAhgI] Addional Tests

It is said that "England" is an adaptation or modern evolution of
"land of
the Angels" Hopefully we have a scholar on the list who knows "Old
and some of the early usage forms. I think Anglia, a region of
also comes from this fundamental tribal name.

However, most would interpret "Anglo-American ties" to be reference to

USA-UK ties of one sort or the other, rather than connections like my
ancestry in which my mother with ancestry directly from Schleswig
married my
father with ancestry directly from 1635 Essex, Massachusetts, in part.
it is easy to transfer "Anglo" to mean England.

The Germans when griping about the American/English economic model
probably drop "Saxon" from the adjective Anglo-Saxon when talking
about the
"roughness" of these non-continental ways of doing things.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Blasingame" <>
To: "Y-DNA-Haplohroup-I" <>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Addional Tests

> Really, I'm not trying to make it difficult. Forgive me.
> My DYS 456 is 14. I know, that does bode well for still being in
> What's left?
> So all this time I thought that Anglo meant England and Saxon meant
> Germany. So this means that my family is most likely Germanic.
> Tom

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