Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-L Archives

Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2009-03 > 1236720825


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2b1
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:33:45 -0600
References: <7A09C5934C3B496E8026C9C2548137EF@D8GWS191><001d01c9a12a$32142850$6400a8c0@Ken1><1424620F3A27478EA8D5619344BF9BAF@whifflepoof><65a020c80903101218s3212bbffif4682c8eb565d2ea@mail.gmail.com><003701c9a1ba$56621fb0$6400a8c0@Ken1><EBAD64C9BF6449D68F43454758F8FA11@whifflepoof>


My present best answers are below in [[[ ]]]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wil Husted" <>

> I'm trying to figure-out all of this stuff involving Haplogroup I and make
> some sense of it (to me). Here are a few questions for you:
>
> Where did Haplogroup I originate or branch from ..?..?
[[[ It came from IJ haplogroup probably in Turkey or Caucasus ]]]
>
> When did the first Haplogroup I people arrive in Europe?
[[[ Maybe about 22,000 years ago ]]]
>
> Was the Balkans area the LGM refuge for all Haplogroup I (other than I2a1
> that branched somewhere east of the Adriatic Sea and weathered the LGM in
> Iberia)? Or were there other refuge areas?
[[[ Balkans or middle Danube basin or Italy or Caucasus or Turkey or several
of these places ]]]
>
> If the Balkans area was the only Haplogroup I refuge, would the population
> have been a "soup" of clades, subclades etc.?
[[[ That depends on what you call clades... Many died out. Certainly I1,
I2a and I2(xa) separated before or early in the LGM, and I2a1 separated by
then as well. Other separations took place during the LGM. See
warpedfounderstree at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net ]]]
>
> When and where did the various clades and subclades of Haplogroup I go
> [[[right?]]] after
> the LGM?
[[[ I2a1 was around western Mediterranean; I2* was everywhere man was in
Europe then; other I which eventually survived was mainly in the
Danube/Balkans area and moving to the west and north. It would be nice to
know more about France.]]]
>
> Would a map of the various branches and twigs of Haplogroup I with their
> ages be possible with the current data? [[[ Too early to be much more than
> speculation for such an early time ]]]
>
> I have other questions but this is more than enough for now.
>
> Wil Husted
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2b1
>
>
>> That's my default hypothesis right now, too.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Charles Hollenbeck" <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 1:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2b1
>>
>>
>>> It's slightly after the 'Neoloithic Revolution' (i.e., farming) reached
>>> northwestern Germany.
>>> Farming gets introduced; a slight pause while the locals get the hang of
>>> it
>>> (maybe suffer a
>>> famine or two in the process); then - BOOM! - population explosion.
>>> Charlie
>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Wil Husted <>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ken,
>>>>
>>>> >From whom and where would these hordes have branched and spread? At
>>>> >4,000
>>>> years, this would have been after the climate had returned, more or
>>>> less,
>>>> to
>>>> modern pre-global warming conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Wil Husted
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
>>>> To: <>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 8:44 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2b1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Within the huge I2b1*-Continental 1 & 2 clades (and they are huge) I
>>>> > have
>>>> > not found markers to further divide the population into regional
>>>> > sub-populations. It is a lot like I1-generic and many of those
>>>> > R1b........ clades. I think these all expanded rapidly starting
>>>> > about
>>>> the
>>>> > same time --- 4000 years ago or so --- and roughly in the same
>>>> > location.
>>>> > As a result there is minimal differentiation of sub-clades based on
>>>> > STR
>>>> > values. Pictorially, their trees are very bush with short branch
>>>> > segments
>>>> > between the nodes.
>>>> >
>>>> > So northwest Germany, Netherlands, much of Scandinavia, and England
>>>> > are
>>>> > the most populous places for I2b1*-Continental
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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