Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2009-08 > 1249581657

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: [yDNAhgI] Did Dinaric I2a2 MRCA ancestors move southeast ratherthan northwest?
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 12:00:57 -0600

I want to describe a growing oddity --- at least to me --- concerning the haplogroup I2a2-Dinaric. This is the clade which the early academics in European population studies said originated in southeast Europe just after the LGM, because, I assume, that's where today it is found at highest frequency (Bosnia, Croatia....).

1. First oddity is the very youthfulness of I2a2-Dinaric. It's MRCA looks to be only about 3000 years old by standard age estimates. I1, by comparison, seems 4000 years old; I2a1-M26+ looks 8000 years old; some clades of haplogroup I found in the British Isles look 6000 years old, etc.

2. Second oddity is the nature of the three nearest cousin clades to I2a2-Dinaric in the tree of haplogroup I

Closest cousin is I2a2-Disles which at the moment is not separated from I2a2-Disles by a snp. Disles clade is found primarily in the British Isles. The node where branches to Disles and to Dinaric part ways looks to be at least 5000 years ago.

Next closest cousin is I2a2-Isles separated from I2a2-Dinaric by two snps. I2a2-Isles is found mainly in the British Isles, although some evidence of presence in France and north German plain exists for the older two of the four clades of I2a2-Isles. I2a2-Isles clades started to branch apart from each other at least 6000 years ago, while the node where I2a2-Dinaric branch line and I2a2-Isles branch line parted ways occured 12,000 years ago.

Next closest cousin is I2a-F whose ancestral line branched off even earlier than 12,000 years ago, and prior to the M423 snp which shows derived for both I2a2-Dinaric and I2a2-Isles. I2a-F is found mainly in France and British Isles (Scotland)

Although I'm very willing to consider luck a big factor where the single ancestral lines of the old y tree roamed between their nodes, or deciding which branch lines survived and which went extinct, I here start to see a trend (or just patterns in the clouds?); it seems the ancestral line going back from the I2a2-Dinaric MRCA may have lived in more northwesterly Europe for thousands of years and then later wandered back to the Balkans before its Dinaric MRCA came onto the scene? We really have no reason to put I2a2-Dinaric in southeast Europe earlier than about 3000 years ago.

The nodes where I2a-Western (also of northwest Europe) and western Mediterranean's I2a1 M26+ branch lines parted from the branch line leading to the previously mentioned clades are far back in time --- at the beginning of the LGM.


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