Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2009-11 > 1257161544

From: "Michael Keaveney" <>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Using DNA to solve a problem
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 11:32:24 +0000
References: <4AEDC556020000F90001CBD7@GWRENMORE.gmit.ie><!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAALDpNPG6gzpEjjlf+uwFNhLCgAAAEAAAAAtXAVDTIwBEk6uR5GsKRKYBAAAAAA==@bigpond.net.au>

Hello Don,

I didn't mean to sound authoritative and had intended to add a smilie. I just caught the reference on another forum and thought it was appropriate to bring it to your attention. The M222+ group spend a lot of time discussing Irish and Scottish surnames and genealogies.

The account is given in a Scottish McDonald manuscript. Why would they make this up?

On checking further I see that there is a River Roe which drains in Lough Foyle, not Lough Swilly, in Co. Derry.

The cited article also mentions the Roses of Kilravoxk as being from the same area in Derry. It is not indicated that the Monroes and the Roses are related but increased DNA testing could lead to some unravelling of these types of historical accounts eventually.

If you have not done so already I suggest that you join Bill Morrow's I2a Project at Ftdna? : http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults

Michael (I2a2-Isles-C2)

>>> "Don Munro" <> 02/11/2009 00:58 >>>
Thank you Michael,

Your story of the Munro origins is similar to one I have heard before but
now that I know where it came from I can check it out.

You seem quite definite about my own origins, so maybe I am descended from
one of those 140 who came to Scotland with the Irish chieftain's daughter!
Can you tell me what makes you think my origins are in Derry?

Regards, Don

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Monday, 2 November 2009 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Using DNA to solve a problem

Hello Don,

It seems like as if you are Irish from near Derry, aka Londonderry, on the
banks of Lough Swilly.

I attach an extract from an email today on the M222+ forum by John

It seems that as part of a dowry for an Irish Chieftain's daughter, who was
marring a Scottish chieftain, Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill, 140 men moved
permanently with her to Scotland. The Munroe's original Irish surname was

"RC ii. 158; Grant and Cheape. Periods in Highland History

The clan Donald, Volume 1
By Archibald Macdonald

"The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in
O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left
representatives are known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh
nighean a' Chathanaich" - the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter.

The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two
families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost
Roe water in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan,
and the Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorieal distinction in the
North Highlands. The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the
Fearns, Dingwalls, Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the
MS of 1700 mentions, in addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen,
and the MacGilleglasses.

MS 1700 is a reference to the MacDonald MS. of 1700."



>>> "Don Munro" <> 10/31/09 12:40 PM >>>
I hope you don't mind a complete novice asking a non technical question
regarding the possibility of DNA testing solving a question that cannot be
solved in any other way - maybe that is a technical question!

The Clan Munro's homelands are in the North of Scotland, just above
Dingwall. There are a couple of theories about the Munro's origins. The
first is that they have always lived in that area, or close by and are
therefore native to the area. The second is that Munro in Gaelic means man
from Ro & that is taken to be the river Ro in Ireland & the Munros migrated
from there - no point in going into the reason for why they did that. I
could throw in a thought of my own which is that as there is a Ro/Roe in the
Shetlands, Denmark, Norway/Sweden, the Vikings could be the origin of the
clan. After all Dingwall & other names are Norse in origin & the Vikings
were in control of the North of Scotland at the time the Munros came into
existence. However no one seems to think much of that theory, so let's stick
to the first two.

My thoughts are that, as there is an Isles subclade which can be Scottish or
Irish in direction, could this not be used to indicate the origin of the
Munros in the North of Scotland? For instance my haplogroup is I2a2 & I
somehow managed to find the Cullen Predictor which told me that my
Haplogroup probabilities are I-P37.2 =>99% and that my Haplo-I Subclades and
probabilities are I-M423-Isles-A =>100%.

Now I don't know if I am Isles Scottish or Irish or how to find out which I
would be. I have only had 25 markers tested, so that may not be enough to
determine which I might be. Anyhow, I might not even be a good example as I
have no close match with any of the Munros tested - or anyone else for that
matter! Maybe that is not important.

I have rambled on enough and if anyone has managed to wade through the
above, you might be kind enough to let me know what you think of the Munro
origins being determined by the Isles Scottish or Irish subclades & maybe
also tell me how I can find out if I am Isles Scottish or Irish.

Thank you.

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This thread: