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From: Familienarchiv Fritsche + Saldarriaga<>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Saxon Normans?
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:29:10 +0200


Hello all,

<< But most Viking settlers in Normandy were not nobility, whatever else they were. I think it's controversial whether they came from Denmark or Norway. If they came from Denmark, they'd have had a mixture of "Saxon" and Norse I1. >>

It is historically reported that a strong part of those "Normans" were explicitly *not* of Danish or Norwegian origin but on the contrary they were of various geographic and genetic origins and joint the Normans during their countless forays and raids, elsewhere on the European continent, voluntarily or not. They had been incorporated into the Norman crews and eventually numerous parts of all those itinerant "Normans" settled together in the Normandy.

The ruling class supposedly by majority was of Norse origin, but surely not all of them. Crucial for leadership was war feats, not origins.

Besides this, we must consider, that since many thousands of years no European population conserved a certain haplogroup or subclade. All smaller or larger groups of people were mixed and at best only showed a certain percental pattern of certain haplogroups or subclades, an appearance which we can see also today among smaller or larger groups of our current populations.

Furthermore, all over Europe we still have too little nationwide or regionwide dna tests results to have a strong validity.

So being "I M253-AS-gen" by Y-haplotype, there's no evidence, that my forefathers in fact were of explicit Saxon origin. That often seems to be misunderstood, regarding those definitions.

In my understanding what Ken found out is that these different haplotypes seem to point more or less to certain geographic origins and thus to supposedly certain parts of population.

But how these people split, migrated and shared their genes during those back centuries is mostly not known during a long time. We only can define it with reliability for some of the last generations of our own families we researched person by person and step by step in church registers, etc. But between these results and facts and the farther past is a broad gap.

My ancestors I -> I1 were of old European, pre-Indoeuropean origin, but no one knows what happened during the following thousands of years. They admixed with other populations, no matter, what names their bore on both sides. By time, historic populations arose - and admixed further and further.

My first known ancestor appeared in the year 1580 in the south of what is current German state of Sachsen-Anhalt, in the southwest of the city of Halle on Saale. Supposedly he already bore my "I M253-AS-gen" haplotype. But where his ancestors came from and to which populations and peoples they really belonged at different times is a black box.

Best regards.

Jürgen (Fritsche)



Absender:
Betreff:[yDNAhgI] Saxon Normans?
Datum: 15.06.2010 08:17:43
Empfänger:

<<I've been going through the posts in my notebook putting tother haplotypes,
<<and I noticed that some time back, Ken posted something about finding a bunch
<<of Norman DNA mostly Saxon. It wasn't clear where he got the data, and it
<<wasn't clear if it was specifically Norman, or French in general.
<<
<<Many of the emigrants to France came from Brittany and Normandy. Other
<<common origins were Paris and the southwestern coast.
<<
<<I just downloaded the data from the French Heritage project. I didn't get
<<the same proportion haplogroup I as the last person who checked, possibly
<<because of my counting methods. I counted all individuals, as the
<<spreadsheet provides the count of them and I didn't want to count nearly a
<<thousand families. But after removing the people who weren't haplogroup I,
<<I counted family groups as one emigrant.
<<
<<I came up with 159 haplogroup I.
<<
<<Of those:
<<
<<I1 82
<<I1d and I1d1 9
<<I1b 2
<<I 6
<<I2 2
<<I2a 31
<<I2a1 1
<<I2a2 2
<<I2b 6
<<I2b1 16
<<I2b2 2
<<I2b1c 1
<<
<<These were self reported haplogroups, and also self-reportedly of French
<<ancestry. The names of those who were not grouped were often English.
<<
<<I don't know how Ken could have grouped I1, whichever database he found it
<<in, by Saxon type vs Norse type, given that no database customarily lists
<<many markers for most participants. I know that DYS 464 is supposed to form
<<a pattern but I couldn't discern it. There isn't a consistent correspondence
<<in this data between 13,14 at DYS 385 and 22 at DYS 390, and 14, 14, or 14,
<<15 at DYS 385 and 23 and DYS 390.
<<
<<I counted those who were 22 vs 23 at DYS 390. Based on that criteria, I got
<<43 Norse and 51 Saxon.
<<
<<Ken speculated that most Normans were Saxon due to William bringing mainly
<<Danish nobility to England? But most Viking settlers in Normandy were not
<<nobility, whatever else they were. I think it's controversial whether they
<<came from Denmark or Norway. If they came from Denmark, they'd have had a
<<mixture of "Saxon" and Norse I1.
<<
<<I think maybe we should also keep in mind that a true gradient in I1 extends
<<across northwestern France, which is adjacent to Belgium, the Netherlands and
<<Germany on the north. It would be expected to have some indigenous Saxon
<<type I1.
<<
<<I also noticed something else strange about the data. I looked up the names
<<in my own genealogical database. My brother in law and my aunt's husband
<<have very extensive French Canadian ancestry. But I didn't even look up
<<most of the names, because I could see by looking at them that they aren't
<<there. Not only have I never heard of most of the names, but the names are
<<strange looking for French names, they often don't look French, and when they
<<do look French, they often look as if they've been spelled according to some
<<other language's spelling rules, and both names and spellings are too strange
<<for Anglicization in Canada and the U.S. to account for it. Gigaouette,
<<Clergeau, Corbet, Du Crozat, Doyon, Diel, Deslippe, Edmond, Embry, Hamel,
<<Hus, Loyer, Plouf, Quenneville, Prairie, Perrass, Pecaut, Paradis, Spanneut,
<<Vilmur and Verville, Azard, Bourassa, Deli, Flamand, Gamage, Gillette and
<<Gillette, Lecunff. I wonder what languages they did come from. Most of
<<the !
<< families my relatives are descended from have typical French sounding names,
<<spelled by French spelling rules.
<<
<<Yours,
<<Dora


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