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Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2011-01 > 1295117481


From: Pablo Carballada <>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1 AS9b Geographic Origins Results
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 19:51:21 +0100
References: <7CE4EA1C-4F1F-4706-BF56-BB669AA08FA8@bendcable.com><AANLkTimcywJ8zhVJUm5kw=33LRJRTLki8N7Kfr7Oqgjm@mail.gmail.com><834965487.20110113094006@harvington.org.uk><AANLkTi=12k3cSx-6gzKVb4E5ERi3gLLUf7=-_QaW1Rv2@mail.gmail.com><293202926.20110115155407@harvington.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <293202926.20110115155407@harvington.org.uk>


As an Iberian I1-AS(gen), I followed Terry's chart with interest and saw that I fall down into BAA. I don't know how accurate would be talking about Finland or NE Europe, but that doesn't sound too wrong to me, since I think most of the Iberian I1 folks came from the Suevi and Goth invasions, and those peoples were around the baltic shores some 2000-3000 years ago.

Pablo

El 15/01/2011, a las 16:54, Chris Haynes <> escribió:

> Just some ignorant speculation...
>
> Noting that Terry's BA* Finnish clusters:
>
> a) Seem to have their highest density in the far North-East of Europe,
>
> b) Seem to be the only I clusters to have a significant representation in Spain,
>
> c) Seem to have some (2 now reported) instabilities in the DYS390 repeats (implying to me a bifurcation in haplogroup I sub-groups),
>
> and given what seems a general belief that Haplogroup I emerged from Spain after the LGM,
>
> Is it possible that:
>
> - these BA* clusters represent the oldest part of Haplogroup I?
>
> - that some were left behind in Spain,
>
> - that the majority were the first to move northwards, and got pushed further North and East by successive waves of other migrants,
>
> - that the other I clusters represent later mutations amongst those who stopped-off on the way or who left Spain later?
>
> Is this plausible?
>
> Could one test this speculation somehow?
>
> Chris
>
> On Thursday, January 13, 2011 at 11:24:32 AM, Terry wrote:
>> Chris,
>> Your speculation that one of your Thurbin ancestors might have had a
>> back-mutation in DYS390 (from an assumed ancestral 22 repeats, then a
>> descendant mutating up to 23 repeats, and then a later descendant
>> back-mutating down to 22 repeats again) could very well be possible after
>> looking through the histograms and noting your other STR marker values.
>
>> If you didn't have that back-mutation then you would be "AAA", but allowing
>> for the possibility of a back-mutation in your DYS390, then you would be
>> "BAA" and the histograms say that is an acceptable alternative when
>> considering all your 67 marker values.
>
>> So in your case you could indeed be BAA rather than AAA because your values
>> on the histograms also fit that interpretation assuming a back-mutation in
>> your DYS390. For other people, their STR values on the histograms might not
>> fit such an alternative.
>
>> This concept of an independent mutation (which includes back-mutations) is
>> mentioned in the text at the top-left of the decision tree for I1 - it is an
>> unavoidable problem, but the histograms can be used to reduce the failure
>> rate in assigning you to a cluster/clan.
>
>> Terry
>
>
>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Chris Haynes <>wrote:
>
>>> Re: Finnish origin.
>
>>> I posted my in-law's Thurbin results (YSearch XP586) a couple of days ago,
>>> noting the AAA cluster result but four anomalous STR values.
>
>>> Since then I've been studying Terry's histograms in more detail.
>
>>> It appears visually as if my Thurbin results are statistically a closest
>>> match to the BAA Finland group (three of the four anomalies are no longer
>>> anomalous within that context, and the fourth looks like a test error).
>>> However we have DYS390=22, which your decision chart causes us to follow the
>>> route to AAA.
>
>>> I had been speculating about Thurbin being of Finnish origin (BAA) with an
>>> original DYS=23 with but with a subsequent mutation of DYS390 23 -> 22
>>> (back to 22?).
>
>>> Do these speculations contribute to this debate on the Finnish cluster?
>
>>> Chris Haynes
>
>
>>> On Thursday, January 13, 2011 at 12:25:22 AM, Terry wrote:
>>>> Roy,
>>>> I should have commented on your final paragraph:
>
>>>> The 2 kits for Finland (one of them is mine) have a value of 14 at
>>>> DYS557 and as such do not fit into the framework of the model. For
>>>> this experiment I used 15 in place of the 14 – 15 being the value of
>>>> about 65% of AS9b at this marker. Still, the supporting genealogy for
>>>> the ancestors of these 2 individuals is Hailuoto and Haukipudas,
>>>> Finland going back well over 300 years. I would have expected them to
>>>> fall into either BA* or BBA.
>
>
>>>> My guess is that the I1 people in Finland arrived via two separate
>>> routes.
>
>>>> One route is the western one via Norway and Sweden and the other is via
>>> the
>>>> eastern route up through the Baltic.
>
>>>> The small number of AAA people in Finland could have arrived via either
>>>> route. But the small number of BBA people in Finland might have got there
>>>> via the western route through Norway and Sweden. For the more common BA*
>>>> people in Finland, they might either be descendants of someone who
>>> acquired
>>>> the appropriate mutation in Finland, or they arrived in Finland from the
>>>> western route via Norway and Sweden. This is all speculation - experts in
>>>> the historic migration may know better.
>
>>>> Any of these scenarios would have happened a long time ago. So your
>>> Finnish
>>>> ancestors from 300 years ago might be the advance members of your clan
>>> that
>>>> came from a location further south - so your local clan density would be
>>>> lower in Finland, as the main bunch stayed on elsewhere. Again this is
>>>> just speculation - many things are possible.
>
>>>> Terry
>
>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Roy Silfven <>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>>> Below is the breakdown of the I1 AS9b group’s geographic origins using
>>>>> Terry’s “STR Cluster Decision Tree, and compared to user submitted
>>>>> ancestral locations:
>
>>>>> Of the 4 Kits claiming Norway as the location:
>
>>>>> 1 result of ABB (Norway is the hotspot on this map so this result is
>>>>> correct)
>
>>>>> 3 results of AAA (Norway is included on this map. The hotspots seem to
>>>>> be England and France, but also covers a broad area of northern Europe)
>
>>>>> Of the 4 kits claiming UK/England:
>
>>>>> 1 result of AAA (England is the hotspot on this map, a
>>>>> correct position)
>
>>>>> 1 result of AAB (Includes England but hotspots are Ireland, Scotland,
>>>>> & France)
>
>>>>> 2 results of ABA (Includes England but dimmer than
>>>>> Ireland, Scotland, France, & Germany
>
>>>>> Of the 2 kits claiming Germany:
>
>>>>> 2 results of AAA (Germany is part of this map but less
>>>>> hot than England and France)
>
>>>>> Of the 2 kits claiming Finland:
>
>>>>> 2 results of AAA (Finland appears on this map but is the
>>>>> weakest shading)
>
>>>>> 1 kit claiming Sweden: 1 result of AAA (Sweden included on this map at
>>>>> lesser shading)
>
>>>>> Of the 7 kits with unknown ancestral locations:
>
>>>>> 4 results of AAA
>
>>>>> 1 result of AAB
>
>>>>> 2 results of ABB
>
>>>>> Of the 13 kits, 2 results equaled the ancestral location supplied by
>>>>> the submitter. 9 results were "technically" correct but did not the
>>>>> pin pointed location supplied by the submitter.
>
>>>>> The 2 kits for Finland (one of them is mine) have a value of 14 at
>>>>> DYS557 and as such do not fit into the framework of the model. For
>>>>> this experiment I used 15 in place of the 14 – 15 being the value of
>>>>> about 65% of AS9b at this marker. Still, the supporting genealogy for
>>>>> the ancestors of these 2 individuals is Hailuoto and Haukipudas,
>>>>> Finland going back well over 300 years. I would have expected them to
>>>>> fall into either BA* or BBA.
>
>
>>>>> Roy Silfven
>>>>>
>
>
>
>
>
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