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From: Pablo Carballada <>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1 AS9b Geographic Origins Results
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 22:44:07 +0100
References: <617835.18548.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <617835.18548.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Yes, Aaron, I agree. I just think that those early Germanic invasions brought the mainstream of the Iberian I1, because of their numbers. Only the Suevi that came to the NW are thought to have been around 30000. Even more the Visigoths...



El 15/01/2011, a las 21:02, Aaron Casillas escribió:

> @Carballada Besides the Visigoths, there are other cases where German and
> Scandanavian Christians participated in the Reconquest of Spain, either in
> battle or the repopulation of Spain under the idea of "pressura" or pressure via
> charters.
>
> One source here sites, that King Sancho I used English,Dutch, Danish and
> Frisians crusaders in 1189
> http://books.google.com/books?id=6qIMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA541&lpg=PA541&dq=frisian+crusaders+in+spain&source=bl&ots=rveAlvcflR&sig=JWxPhuscsfvmqy_4CUgd0uEWO4U&hl=en&ei=ufgxTY2_CoSasAPVupz8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=frisian%20crusaders%20in%20spain&f=false
>
>
> William I of Holland led Frisians into Spain, 1204
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=EFQT9ccbdfIC&pg=PA59&dq=Frisians+in+Spain&hl=en&ei=QvsxTdCoKo-asAPy-4WJBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Frisians%20in%20Spain&f=false
>
>
> and obviously the Norman participation of reconquest and crusading in Spain...
>
> I'm only guessing, but I'd figure some would stay in Spain. My fathers are r1b
> u106 l48 Frisian, born in a town where such charters were created for
> recolonization by the admins and people of the Holy Roman Emperor who ruled from
> the Netherlands (Habsburgs). This idea well extended to Mexico as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Pablo Carballada <>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 10:51:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1 AS9b Geographic Origins Results
>
> As an Iberian I1-AS(gen), I followed Terry's chart with interest and saw that I
> fall down into BAA. I don't know how accurate would be talking about Finland or
> NE Europe, but that doesn't sound too wrong to me, since I think most of the
> Iberian I1 folks came from the Suevi and Goth invasions, and those peoples were
> around the baltic shores some 2000-3000 years ago.
>
>
> Pablo
>
> El 15/01/2011, a las 16:54, Chris Haynes <> escribió:
>
>> Just some ignorant speculation...
>>
>> Noting that Terry's BA* Finnish clusters:
>>
>> a) Seem to have their highest density in the far North-East of Europe,
>>
>> b) Seem to be the only I clusters to have a significant representation in
>> Spain,
>>
>> c) Seem to have some (2 now reported) instabilities in the DYS390 repeats
>> (implying to me a bifurcation in haplogroup I sub-groups),
>>
>> and given what seems a general belief that Haplogroup I emerged from Spain
>> after the LGM,
>>
>> Is it possible that:
>>
>> - these BA* clusters represent the oldest part of Haplogroup I?
>>
>> - that some were left behind in Spain,
>>
>> - that the majority were the first to move northwards, and got pushed further
>> North and East by successive waves of other migrants,
>>
>> - that the other I clusters represent later mutations amongst those who
>> stopped-off on the way or who left Spain later?
>>
>> Is this plausible?
>>
>> Could one test this speculation somehow?
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On Thursday, January 13, 2011 at 11:24:32 AM, Terry wrote:
>>> Chris,
>>> Your speculation that one of your Thurbin ancestors might have had a
>>> back-mutation in DYS390 (from an assumed ancestral 22 repeats, then a
>>> descendant mutating up to 23 repeats, and then a later descendant
>>> back-mutating down to 22 repeats again) could very well be possible after
>>> looking through the histograms and noting your other STR marker values.
>>
>>> If you didn't have that back-mutation then you would be "AAA", but allowing
>>> for the possibility of a back-mutation in your DYS390, then you would be
>>> "BAA" and the histograms say that is an acceptable alternative when
>>> considering all your 67 marker values.
>>
>>> So in your case you could indeed be BAA rather than AAA because your values
>>> on the histograms also fit that interpretation assuming a back-mutation in
>>> your DYS390. For other people, their STR values on the histograms might not
>>> fit such an alternative.
>>
>>> This concept of an independent mutation (which includes back-mutations) is
>>> mentioned in the text at the top-left of the decision tree for I1 - it is an
>>> unavoidable problem, but the histograms can be used to reduce the failure
>>> rate in assigning you to a cluster/clan.
>>
>>> Terry
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Chris Haynes <>wrote:
>>
>>>> Re: Finnish origin.
>>
>>>> I posted my in-law's Thurbin results (YSearch XP586) a couple of days ago,
>>>> noting the AAA cluster result but four anomalous STR values.
>>
>>>> Since then I've been studying Terry's histograms in more detail.
>>
>>>> It appears visually as if my Thurbin results are statistically a closest
>>>> match to the BAA Finland group (three of the four anomalies are no longer
>>>> anomalous within that context, and the fourth looks like a test error).
>>>> However we have DYS390=22, which your decision chart causes us to follow the
>>>> route to AAA.
>>
>>>> I had been speculating about Thurbin being of Finnish origin (BAA) with an
>>>> original DYS=23 with but with a subsequent mutation of DYS390 23 -> 22
>>>> (back to 22?).
>>
>>>> Do these speculations contribute to this debate on the Finnish cluster?
>>
>>>> Chris Haynes
>>
>>
>>>> On Thursday, January 13, 2011 at 12:25:22 AM, Terry wrote:
>>>>> Roy,
>>>>> I should have commented on your final paragraph:
>>
>>>>> The 2 kits for Finland (one of them is mine) have a value of 14 at
>>>>> DYS557 and as such do not fit into the framework of the model. For
>>>>> this experiment I used 15 in place of the 14 – 15 being the value of
>>>>> about 65% of AS9b at this marker. Still, the supporting genealogy for
>>>>> the ancestors of these 2 individuals is Hailuoto and Haukipudas,
>>>>> Finland going back well over 300 years. I would have expected them to
>>>>> fall into either BA* or BBA.
>>
>>
>>>>> My guess is that the I1 people in Finland arrived via two separate
>>>> routes.
>>
>>>>> One route is the western one via Norway and Sweden and the other is via
>>>> the
>>>>> eastern route up through the Baltic.
>>
>>>>> The small number of AAA people in Finland could have arrived via either
>>>>> route. But the small number of BBA people in Finland might have got there
>>>>> via the western route through Norway and Sweden. For the more common BA*
>>>>> people in Finland, they might either be descendants of someone who
>>>> acquired
>>>>> the appropriate mutation in Finland, or they arrived in Finland from the
>>>>> western route via Norway and Sweden. This is all speculation - experts in
>>>>> the historic migration may know better.
>>
>>>>> Any of these scenarios would have happened a long time ago. So your
>>>> Finnish
>>>>> ancestors from 300 years ago might be the advance members of your clan
>>>> that
>>>>> came from a location further south - so your local clan density would be
>>>>> lower in Finland, as the main bunch stayed on elsewhere. Again this is
>>>>> just speculation - many things are possible.
>>
>>>>> Terry
>>
>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Roy Silfven <>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Below is the breakdown of the I1 AS9b group’s geographic origins using
>>>>>> Terry’s “STR Cluster Decision Tree, and compared to user submitted
>>>>>> ancestral locations:
>>
>>>>>> Of the 4 Kits claiming Norway as the location:
>>
>>>>>> 1 result of ABB (Norway is the hotspot on this map so this result is
>>>>>> correct)
>>
>>>>>> 3 results of AAA (Norway is included on this map. The hotspots seem to
>>>>>> be England and France, but also covers a broad area of northern Europe)
>>
>>>>>> Of the 4 kits claiming UK/England:
>>
>>>>>> 1 result of AAA (England is the hotspot on this map, a
>>>>>> correct position)
>>
>>>>>> 1 result of AAB (Includes England but hotspots are Ireland, Scotland,
>>>>>> & France)
>>
>>>>>> 2 results of ABA (Includes England but dimmer than
>>>>>> Ireland, Scotland, France, & Germany
>>
>>>>>> Of the 2 kits claiming Germany:
>>
>>>>>> 2 results of AAA (Germany is part of this map but less
>>>>>> hot than England and France)
>>
>>>>>> Of the 2 kits claiming Finland:
>>
>>>>>> 2 results of AAA (Finland appears on this map but is the
>>>>>> weakest shading)
>>
>>>>>> 1 kit claiming Sweden: 1 result of AAA (Sweden included on this map at
>>>>>> lesser shading)
>>
>>>>>> Of the 7 kits with unknown ancestral locations:
>>
>>>>>> 4 results of AAA
>>
>>>>>> 1 result of AAB
>>
>>>>>> 2 results of ABB
>>
>>>>>> Of the 13 kits, 2 results equaled the ancestral location supplied by
>>>>>> the submitter. 9 results were "technically" correct but did not the
>>>>>> pin pointed location supplied by the submitter.
>>
>>>>>> The 2 kits for Finland (one of them is mine) have a value of 14 at
>>>>>> DYS557 and as such do not fit into the framework of the model. For
>>>>>> this experiment I used 15 in place of the 14 – 15 being the value of
>>>>>> about 65% of AS9b at this marker. Still, the supporting genealogy for
>>>>>> the ancestors of these 2 individuals is Hailuoto and Haukipudas,
>>>>>> Finland going back well over 300 years. I would have expected them to
>>>>>> fall into either BA* or BBA.
>>
>>
>>>>>> Roy Silfven
>>>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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