Archiver > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I > 2011-01 > 1295399332

From: "Wm.Ballough" <>
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2a2 - Hungary?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:08:52 -0800
References: <283725.98011.qm@web162003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><001a01cbb6ad$32ea3b80$c2482dae@Ken1><966206.76434.qm@web114719.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><03E6D3DF65AA4C66A2428C2260338963@williamae9zxcy><CB3F7C603A49461E84A56E47DA85D494@LENOVO3E8E57C1><1D3A522257A54C1E922878837BCD01CE@williamae9zxcy><91AF6CFC28BE478EA4B03DC52404F4E0@LENOVO3E8E57C1><4D36259B.6010905@genealogie-fritsche.de>

I would think that the number of people in Hungary and throughout the world
claiming Magyar ancestry substantially exceeds the actual number of those
with central asian haplotypes.
My father claimed Magyar ancestry, but my test proved otherwise.
(unless of course the Magyar invaders were rather a mixed group.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Familienarchiv Fritsche + Saldarriaga"
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2a2 - Hungary?

Marek is right - the invasion in the XIII century and its systematic and
efficient ethnic cleansing in Hungary, targeted against the ancient
Magyars, left behind only a very small remnant of the proper ethnic
Magyar population so that scientifics can estimate by genetic analyses
today that currently at most only 10 to 15% of the Hungarian population
has - furthermore at only a certain minor percentage of Magyars in their
lineages - real Magyar (i. e., Uralic) ascendants.

The waste majority of the current Hungarian population genetically
predominantly is of different Slavic, ancient Germanic and medieval and
modern German and in parts of some minor populations origin.

Very impressive is that in spite of that massive ethnic cleansing
against the ancient Magyars their language survived that firm and
unswayed until today even though the majority of the remaining medieval
population in Hungary was not of Magyar origin. That shows that only
after a short period of about 300 years after the conquest of the
Hungarion area by the Magyars they already must have dominated
undoubtedly and firmly also linguistically the entire population of that
region - even if they only were a ruling rank.

Best regards.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2a2 - Hungary?
From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski <>
Date: Dienstag, 18. Januar 2011 23:54:36

> I think the wave of I1 people invited by Bela IV could be historically the
> first one.
> In my opinion before the Tatar invasion the share of I1 in Hungary was
> probably comparable to the share of I1 in Lower Austria, which seems to be
> very low.
> I agree with Juergen that the share of I1 could be significant in the
> given
> area entire tribes moves to it by filling empty places or/and by
> eliminating
> physically existing male population in this area. This is what has
> happened
> in Hungary, because Tatars made an ethnical cleansing in Panonia and
> Slovakia, and left place for new settlers whose majority was from the
> Rhine
> valley - over populated in this time.
> I am not sure whether the effects of Turk invasions were so strong in the
> sense of haplotypic mix in this region. Tatars were probably much worse.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wm.Ballough [mailto:]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 2:30 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2a2 - Hungary?
> Do you conclude that there was no I1 population in Hungary prior to
> repopulation after the Tartars and Turks. Do have any speculation
> regarding
> where the Hungarians who fled the Tartars and Turks fled to?

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marek Skarbek Kozietulski"<>
> To:<>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2a2 - Hungary?
>> To my best knowledge this is not Bela Bartok - the writer. This name is
>> quite popular in Hungary.
>> I think the most I1 haplotypes in Hungary are by descendants of German
>> settlers, also in medieval times.
>> Many of them were invited to Hungary by the King Bela IV after the
>> terrible
>> Tatar invasion in 40-ties of the XIII century, which has empted the most
>> territory of Hungary and Slovakia. The settlers were mainly from the
>> Rhine
>> area and Netherlands.
>> The same invasion has empted also Southern Poland. Probably many I1
>> haplotypes in Poland were imported also in this time.
>> Many I1 haplotypes of Hungary you can find in my map
>> http://medievalgenealogy.republika.pl/normans_ce_distri_map.htm
>> Best,
>> Marek Skarbek Kozietulski

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