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Archiver > YORKSGEN > 2002-05 > 1020255847


From: "Ike Dawson" <>
Subject: [YKS] Cancelling CREDIT Card Transactions in UK
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 13:24:07 +0100
References: <003f01c1f08a$22dc4aa0$f4a254d2@spence> <00c901c1f0f4$713d1700$4876fea9@w0j2n7>


Good Morning John & All

I'm answering the point about card transactions on the list because I
think others will be interested. I mean not to give offence, but to
pass on my personal experience.

I agree very much with your advice on making the complaint in writing
and keeping records. Whatever a complainant does he should NOT complain
by telephone UNLESS it is backed up with a formal written complaint
issued to all parties and as you say, using the Recorded delivery
[which I think Consignia now call 'Signed for' ].

To the best of my knowledge Store Cards fall outwith the following.

For a transaction where Seller and Purchaser are both in UK
jurisdiction:

a. I understand a DEBIT Card transaction cannot be cancelled: its an
immediate transfer of value much like an instantly actioned cheque.

b. However, CREDIT card transactions for personal purchases value
between £100 - 3,000 between a purchaser and a seller both within the UK
jurisdiction fall under the Act and can be cancelled under conditions of
breach of contract.

The Act [if memory serves me well it is s.75] makes the card issuing
authority a party to any such credit card transaction. Making the Bank
[or other finance house] a party to credit card transactions was a
government condition to protect consumers and was enshrined in the Act.
This was a a most important
condition in permitting credit cards to be introduced into UK in 1973?

The Card Issuing Authorities HATE this provision and will go to
considerable lengths to evade it. I speak from personal experience.

I often buy on credit card. To prepare for the transaction I always
write out
BEFORE I make the call the exact details I am specifying taking careful
note to read each point and get a response, and noting the name of the
salesperson etc. I usually make whatever date or other point important
to me when orally agreed, 'of the essence' in the transaction ... which
means if the goods do not show up as specified, then the terms of the
contract are not met. I ensure I keep a full copy of all the details as
agreed. If now, the seller fails to comply with the terms of the sale,
I complain to him in writing with a copy of what was agreed [our oral
contract] and copy the whole to the bank. I advise the seller if he
fails to meet the terms within a set reasonable period the sale will
automatically be cancelled. If I still do not get satisfaction I
write to the bank putting the payment into dispute and asking them to
cancel the transaction and copy the seller.

When I first went down this route a telephone answerer at the Bank Card
Services told me I had to make a claim at the County Court. That I knew
to be false information, told her so but she denied it fiercely. If I
had done that, the bank would have been able to wriggle out of its
responsibility as a third party to the transaction.

I addressed my next letter to her manager and got a similar answer but
again over the telephone. Each time I got a push off I wrote again to
the Bank with the gist of what they had said and my rebuttal and each
time I stated that words over a telephone were an inadequate,
unprofessional and utterly unacceptable response to my written
complaint.
This went on over two more levels of bank management by which time I had
had enough.

I then wrote by Registered post PRIVATE & PERSONAL FOR THE ADDRESSEE
ONLY, to the bank card services CEO.

Never have I heard a more mortified man on the telephone. He had seen
each of my letters by then which repeated what each bank employee had
told me and my response ... so they couldn't get away with saying they
didn't say it ... and as I had copied each time to the next manager up
the chain, the gist of what his underling had said, the management
couldn't say the didn't know. The CEO was most apologetic on the
telephone, said it should never have happened, repeated that the bank
acknowledged the Act, etc etc ... not only was the credit purchase
cancelled but the bank sent me £25 ex gratia for the hassle. He
followed up with a letter which confirmed the conversation and £25.

The next credit card purchase that went wrong was for a new computer
costing just over £2,000 for which I made delivery by a December date of
their specification but acceptable to me, 'of the essence': it failed
to arrive. I rang the company. The customer services clerk said sorry
they were busy and it couldn't be delivered for at least several more
weeks and likely the New Year. I spoke to her manager: he said the
same thing so I insisted on speaking to the CEO ... but got his
secretary. She adopted a didactic tone saying in essence 'tough ... it
was a credit card sale ... they would send it as soon as they could
likely New Year ... and oh no Mr D, there's no way you can cancel it ...
it was a credit card sale'. I said she would hear from my bank.

I rang my bank, explained the situation, advising the action I had taken
on the telephone and said that letters would be despatched by recorded
delivery by afternoon post. She said said she would handle it under the
Act.

The seller's CEO's secretary rang me back about an hour and a half later
with a very very different manner saying a credit transaction had been
made onto my credit card but it would take 3 days to reach my account.
And so it was. I have several other examples.

I must emphasise you need to be accurate in what you say, record in
detail, and be devilishly persistent in the face of the evasion and
finance houses obfuscation arising from their dislike of this Act. If
in doubt read the Act. And NO, you do NOT need to pay a lawyer: giving
the consumer this power was part of the government's specific intention.

But the sting is in the tail: the registered offices of other party in
a credit card transaction you might make over the Internet may well NOT
be in the UK jurisdiction and then the ACT will be no help to you.

Yours aye

Ike

Ike Dawson
Gainford, in Teesdale, Co. Durham


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woolsey" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:38 AM
Subject: [YKS] Ancestry.com & unauthorised card debits!


> In a word - No!
> Banks are powerless to act and can not recredit or stop a transaction!
>
> In the first instance, Write a formal letter of complaint to the
company
> concerned, requesting the transaction to be cancelled and, the moneys
taken
> to be refunded to your Credit / Debit card account. Use Recorded
delivery
> too, so the miscreants can't say ''they never got it''!
>
> Secondly, forward a copy of that letter to your card provider Or, the
> central clearing house for credit / debit card transactions together
with a
> formal letter of complaint against the retailer concerned (copies to
the
> offending party also) . Again, use recorded delivery! Keep proof!
>
> The card provider / clearing house will then contact the retailer
concerned
> and, If all is as you claim, then the money will be refunded. This can
take
> a while!
> Your bankers can provide the necessary addresses & phone numbers for
> contact.
>
> Banks Can Not, And Neither can You, cancel a Credit / Debit card
> transaction, neither can your Card Provider. This Has to be done by
the
> Retailer you dealt with and made the transaction with.
> They also have to make the refund.
> I believe the refunds are eventually made through the card provider to
your
> bank / card account, once the complaint has been dealt with
successfully.
>
> This is the situation in the UK at least, how it is dealt with in
other
> countries I don't know, but should be a similar procedure.
>
> I recently had a similar battle with BT Internet after subscribing to
their
> 24 / 7 service by bank debit card (Visa).
> In short, the service was abysmal, and after a month of trashed Emails
and
> continual disconnections, cancelled the contract (in writing and, also
using
> their contact facility on the web site).
> That was in June 2001. They never made contact with me at any point,
and
> were still taking money from my bank account up to December 2001, even
> though I'd lodged a formal complaint with Card Services months
previously.
>
> Also be Very aware that Debit Card transactions (which debit your bank
> account) are Not Credit cards, they hit your bank account 'real time',
and
> you do Not have the same protection with purchases, that Credit cards
offer
> in terms of losses and warranties.
> They offer the retailer the same guarantees as Credit cards, as they
are
> usually affiliated with Visa, Mastercard, Switch etc. The transactions
can
> Not be countermanded!
>
> So, if the retailer is taking money 'unauthorised', it's nibbling away
at
> your bank balance, Not a credit limit.
> Be Very Wary Indeed of using Debit cards 'On-Line', if things go
'belly up'
> it's your bank account that gets hit, which can make life Very
difficult
> indeed if things get bad enough.
>
> For the UK Anyone having a Credit / Debit card dispute should contact:
>
> Card Services,
> 7th Floor,
> Essex House,Southchurch Ave,
> Southend on Sea,
> Essex,
> SS1 2LB
> Tel (From UK) (0845) 3006699
>
> Retailers do Not Like a Lot of adverse criticism from purchasers going
to
> Card providers. If it gets bad enough, they can have their 'merchant'
status
> removed!
> You could also try complaining to your local Offices of Fair Trading!
> (Trading Standards) or whichever Ombudsman's office is available to
you.
>
> Hope this helps someone!
>
> Kind Regards
>
> John Woolsey (Sheffield UK).
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jean Spence" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 10:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [YKS] need address for Ancestry.com
>
>
> > Could you complain to your bank. Isn't this the first place you go
when
> > your credit card is used without your permission.
> >
> > Jean in S. Australia.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ruth Street" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Wednesday, 1 May 2002 12:33 AM
> > Subject: [YKS] need address for Ancestry.com
> >
> >
> > > If someone has the email address for complaints about Ancestry.com
> > > would they please send it to me off list.
> > > They've used my credit card without my okay.
> > > I subscribed once before a few years back.
> > >
> > > Ruth Street in Southern Ontario
> > > Researching
> > > Waggitt, Waggett - all
> > > http://go.to/waggittgenealogy
>
>
>
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