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From: "Diarmid Campbell" <>
Subject: Re: [CAMPBELL] John Campbell & Grizle Hay
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:39:01 +0100
References: <24.47b2c893.2cc5d077@aol.com>


Kevin,

Since I only just rejoined the list (being away since July)and have no time
to go through the archives, this may be redundant, but here are some
comments on what you write about the SW VA Campbells in the American
colonies:

I looked at Steve J. Bivens material.
I did not find his source notes, although he puts numbers by some names.
I would question the veracity of what he has for the Campbell descent before
they get to PA, after which it is on record.

The earlier part of the ancestry of these SW VA Campbells is best sourced
(in secondary source terms - i.e published material and not an original
document like a birth registration) from the 'pedigree' of the SW VA
Campbells found a few years ago among some VA estate papers in an antique
store in Savannah. This is discussed by Dr. Ruby Campbell PhD, Clan
Campbell Society (North America) Genealogist in a back issue of the
quarterly Journal of the society. (Vol. 28 No. 4 Autumn 2001 pp. 47-49.)

As to your comment on what has been said of Margaret Pilcher's work, 'loves
to discredit' may be misleading. What is said of her work is that it is a
great help AFTER the Campbells arrived in Pennsylvania. What everyone has
to be warned about is BEFORE they arrived in the colony. I wonder whether
Steve Bevins has taken the material (before Pennsylvania) from the Pilcher
book, as anyone might do had they not been warned.

The reason that I would issue this warning with confidence is that, based
upon those early Campbell generations as outlined by Pilcher, two different
research efforts have been undertaken in Ireland in the past twenty years by
groups of descendants in the USA. A considerable number of people
contributed to pay a researcher. The clear result was to clarify that no
evidence could be turned up in support of any of that early Pilcher
information. That is not surprising since Pilcher herself quotes as a
source for the material she published (about those early Irish and Scottish
generations of that Campbell ancestry) that she got it from an (un-named)
elderly lady. I cannot quote her exactly but that was the essence of her
source. Obviously I have nothing against people as sources, but one can
hardly call that 'documentation' when it is about people who lived well
before their lifetime, and out of any 'oral tradition' context. It was the
best she could do under the circumstances - unless of course she had given
the name and address and relationship of the old lady to the Campbells.

At least the research efforts have clarified that another direction needs to
be taken in research for the origins of the early SW VA Campbells. Now
perhaps the newly found pedigree, published in the above Journal, could
offer some new pointers for research if enough people descended from that
line wanted to hire a genealogist in Northern Ireland to undertake that.

As you suggest, there is a chance that a DNA sample turning up similar to
one of the descendants of the SW VA Campbells could help to point up where
to look next.

The descent given in the 18th century document from a Virginia estate sale
discovered in Savannah, as analysed and augmented from record by Dr. R.C.,
shows a descent as follows:

Duncan Campbell in Inveraray = Mary Ramsay [said to be related to the
Dalhousie family]
had a son
John Campbell [wife not mentioned]
had a son
John Campbell = Mary McCoy
had a son and a daughter
John Campbell = Grizel Hay Jean/Jane Campbell = James Hamilton
[living 1753 & 62 & see below]
had one son
and another son
Patrick Campbell [living 1752] = Elizabeth Taylor David Campbell =
Mary [dau. of Arthur son of James H]
had a son
Charles Campbell [d.1767] = Margaret Buchanan
had a son [among others] and a daughter
Gen. Wm. Campbell Kings Mt. Margaret Campbell = Arthur Campbell [son of
David above]

I checked out the beginnings of the reconstructed CCS(NA) site. Many thanks
again for all your great work on the Campbell DNA project. I will keep
looking for more samples from here.

Diarmid
Campbell in Kilmelford, Argyll.

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 12:57 AM
Subject: [CAMPBELL] John Campbell & Grizle Hay


Barb (and other Campbell researchers),

The Campbell-McCoy and Campbell-Hay and John-Anna from York lines are
confusing. I don't have any answers but here some information.

(1) One of the primary proponents of the theory that John Campbell (1692)
was the grandson John/Grizle is Steve Bivens. He has this information on
his
web site, but hasn't responded to requests for sources for this information.
Also he has a father for Duncan (which would be news to everyone!) and dates
that don't make sense. See
<A
HREF="http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/i/v/Steve--J-Bivans/GENE8
-0006.html#CHILD6">
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/i/v/Steve--J-Bivans/GENE8-0006.html#CHILD6</A>;

(2) One possible aid to resolving the question "Was John (1692) the
grandson
of John and Grissle Hay?" might be DNA. The Campbell DNA project has two
DNA
samples from John Campbell (husband of Mary McCoy). These samples were
provided by two descendant of "White" David Campbell, son of John and
Grissel.

Information on the project and the preliminary results are available at:
<A
HREF="http://www.waltier.com/Test%20Results.htm#DNA%20Test%20Results%20Table
">http://www.waltier.com/Test%20Results.htm#DNA%20Test%20Results%20Table</A>;

I apologize because this site is somewhat out of date. (Last updated in
June)

If we could get a skin scraping from a male Campbell descendant of John
Campbell (husband of Anna ?) then we might be able to draw a conclusion
about
whether or not this line is related to Campbell-McCoy and Campbell-Hay.
Alas,
since DNA testing is statistical, it is easier to prove that the lines are
not
related as opposed to definitively related.

All hardcore Campbell researchers ought to check out the Campbell DNA
Project
Web Page
<A HREF="http://www.waltier.com/dna.htm">http://www.waltier.com/dna.htm</A>;

(3) Finally, it seems pretty well documented that some of the the Augusta,
VA Campbells came through Pennsylvania. I believe that Linda Hart's article
mentions a WIllian Campbell who remained in PA as well as a Patrick
Campbell,
who at one time was in PA. (Question - Is this Patrick Campbell who married
Eleanor Hayes?)

Pilcher (who everyone loves to discredit) states:
7John Campbell, son of 6Duncan and Mary McCoy Campbell, was born in
November,
1674, on his father's estate, "Drumboden," seven miles from Londonderry,
Ireland. Here he and his wife lived, and their nine children were born--six
sons
and three daughters. In the year 1726, with their children and a large
number
of relations and friends, they emigrated to the English Colonies in America,
and settled on the Sweet Ara, in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, Donegal
Township. ……... In 1730 7John Campbell purchased a large tract of land in
Orange,
afterwards Augusta County, Virginia, and removed with his family from
Pennsylvania to Virginia. On page 385 of Waddell's "Annals of Augusta
County,
Virginia," it is stated that "William Thompson qualified as administrator of
John
Campbell's estate in 1741. John Lewis was his security."

=========================================

(4) PS - Has everyone visited the new CCSNA.ORG web page? After eons, CCSNA
is finally updating their web site. Kudos to Troy Campbell

- Kevin


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