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Archiver > FLEMING > 1999-11 > 0943856307

From: "Bob Juch" <>
Subject: RE: Anne FLEMING wife of Josias PAYNE
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:18:27 -0700

I just found the following. Comments please.

>From Thu Jan 5 17:12:30 GMT 1995
Article: 9769 of alt.genealogy
Path: dcs.ed.ac.uk!festival!uknet!pipex!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail
From: (Tom Lincoln)
Newsgroups: alt.genealogy
Subject: Tidewater Virginia FLEMINGs and the STUART kings.
Date: 3 Jan 1995 00:01:21 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Lines: 175
Message-ID: <>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu
Status: R

In Florence King's "Southern Ladies and Gentlemen", Bantum Books, NY
1976, there is a chapter on the Southern genealogy fetish entitled
"Thou Shalt Be Kings, No Matter Who Begot Thee." which describes little
old ladies badgering the archivists to find out the link between their
ancestors and the maids of Mary, Queen of Scots...

This exact story is an early and tenacious tradition, firmly maintained
by numerous branches of the FLEMING families of VA, KY and PA reaching
back into the 18th century: that the FLEMINGs who first settled in the
17th century in tidewater VA had as their pioneer ancestor a mysterious
"Sir Thomas FLEMING", the "second son" of an Earl of Wigtown,
significantly a descendant of Malcolm, the third Lord FLEMING, who
married Janet STEWART, an illegitimate daughter of James IV of Scotland
by Isabella STEWART, Countess of Bothwell (daughter of James, Earl of
Buchan). I have tried to make some sense out of it, and have only half

My g.g.g.grandmother, Mary FLEMING (1760 - 15 Sep 1827), daughter of
Judge John FLEMING of Lock Haven PA and Susan CHATHAM (b.JDublin,
Ireland; d. Sep 1815) is said by several sources to be descended in the
line back to the FLEMING Lords of Wigtown through John FLEMING (b. abt
1633 in Cumbarnauld, Lanarkshire, Scotland - d. 27 Aug 1687 in New Kent
Co. VA). John made his first appearance in the Records of the Land
Office in Richmond VA in 1653, and patented land that same year in York
Co. He married (abt 1658) Mercy ____ or Mary _____ (b. abt 1637) then
of Charles Parish, York Co. VA., and patented 250 acres of land in 1658
and 493 acres in 1661 in New Kent [Patent Book #4], where he was buried
on 30 Aug 1687 according to St. Peter's Parish Register.

Sir Thomas FLEMING is said to have come first to James town VA, leaving
descendants in New Kent Co. The records from the earliest period in New
Kent have all burned and most Virginia genealogists consider "Sir
Thomas" to be a myth. It is certainly likely that the information is
garbled. "Sir" is perhaps no more than "son", and perhaps it is not he,
but some descendant who emigrated to VA. Nevertheless, despite serious
doubts by competent genealogists, the story lives on in the hearts,
minds and genealogies of many. Various family histories say he married
a Miss TARLETON and emigrated to the Colony of Virginia in 1616 [the
date is considered by Virginia genealogists to be too early]. His
children may have been Tarleton, John, and Charles, but matters are
confusing. In any case, numerous highly educated FLEMINGs fanned out
>from New Kent Co. VA as lawyers, judges, officers, and members of
colonial and state legislatures. One descendant of the FLEMINGs from
the New Kent line is Dolly [Dorothea] (PAYNE) MADISON, the wife of
President MADISON. The most important split in opinion concerns a
Scottish vs. and English ancestry. Most assert Scottish. However, Worth
S. Ray in "The Lost Tribes of North Carolina" (tracing the HENDERSON
family of Granville Co. NC) makes the argument that, like Stephen
TARLETON, Thomas FLEMING came to Virginia "in the days of Sir George
YEARDLEY" (i.e. 1616-1629), and was of "Cavalier Stock" (i.e. not
Scottish, but from Southwest England). He cites children: John (d.
1686), Tarleton, Charles {m. Susanna TARLETON}, Ursula {m. Capt. Geo.
KEELING, son of Leonard KEELING}, Judith {m. Thomas WILKINSON}, and
Susanna {m. John TARLETON}. Further that "Miss TARLETON" is Judith
TARLETON, sister of Stephen TARLETON who married Miss BATES. Ursula and
Judith, identified by these marriages are additions, but the others
conflict with children assigned to John FLEMING in a more accepted

The LDS Ancestral File [compiled by the Medieval Families Unit] states
that John's father is (Capt.) Alexander FLEMING (b. abt 1612 in
Cumbarnauld, Lanarkshire, Scotland - d. 30 Dec 1668 - 13 Mar 1668/9 in
Rappahanock Co. VA), merchant, Burgess and Guild Brother of Glasgow,
admitted 2 Apr 1646 [who could possibly be a son of "Sir Thomas" or the
brother of John, sixth Earl -- see below.] Archibald F. Bennett [in
"Finding your Forefathers in America", Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft
Company, 1957, pp. 122-130] quotes some earlier family admissions from
Volume 56, The Scottish Record Society, Records of the Burgesses and
Guild Brethren of Glasgow, 1573-1730: "On 10 April 1629 the following
were admitted as Burgesses and Freeman, gratis: John FLEMING lord (This
would be the later 3rd Earl.); Alexander FLEMING his brother; William
FLEMING, also his brother; Alexander FLEMING, their uncle; Patrick
FLEMING, in Balloch; Malcolm FLEMING, servitor to John, Earl of
Wigtown; Robert FLEMING, servitor to John, Earl of Wigtown (son of
Malcolm FLEMING of Woodelie); John FLEMING, servitor to Earl of

Captain Alexander FLEMING married to Elsbeth (or Elizabeth) ANDERSON
(b. abt. 1614 of Glasgow, Scotland - 6 Oct 1656 - 5 Jul 1658 in
Rappahannock Co. VA), a daughter of William ANDERSON, probably the
Marion BELL and William ANDERSON (b. 1588), who registered a testament
in Glasgow 10 Nov 1623. After his wife's death, he married secondly
(1659) Ursula, widow of John BROWN of Accomac Co., and thirdly Joyce
(Jones) HOSKINS (b. 1613), the rich and attractive widow of Anthony
HOSKINS of Accomac Co. and the daughter of Capt. William JONES. On 4
Sep 1667, Capt. Alexander bought 560 acres in the freshes of
Rappahannock Co. He left his estate "Westphalia" to his wife Joyce
FLEMING, Executrix, and other properties to his daughters Alexia and
Elizabeth. The title "Captain" is clearly a VA one, probably related to
the militia, but perhaps like KY Col., a matter of recognition,
property and deference.

Tracing backward, the FLEMING Lords in Scotland were STUART courtiers,
and suffered their ups and downs with the Stuarts. Malcolm, the third
Lord FLEMING, was a well known retainer who did not live long. He
accompanied King James V in his matrimonial expedition to France in Aug
1537, was made prisoner at the rout of Solway in Nov 1542, was released
after paying a ransom of 1000 merks [sic] sterling on 1 Jul 1543, but
died at the Battle of Pinkie Clough, 10 Sep 1547. However, Lady Janet
had quite a colorful career as a widow of the blood royal. Adjudged a
suitable governess, she accompanied the six-year-old Mary Queen of
Scots to France in 1548 for her betrothal to the Dauphin. In the train
were "four Marys": her daughter, Mary FLEMING and three other girls of
the same age, all named Mary. At the French court Lady Janet caught the
eye of King Henry II, father of the Dauphin, and in due course of time
they had an illegitimate son named Henry [Harry de Valois]. This
indiscretion aroused the enmity of Henry II's wife, Catherine de Medici
and, perhaps more importantly, of his mistress Diane de Poitiers, who
brooked no interlopers. Lady Janet was sent packing back to Scotland.
"The four Marys" remained attached to the ill-fated Queen of Scots
throughout her life, and the name of Mary FLEMING is said to have been
perpetuated in the family from that time forward....

James, fourth Lord FLEMING, son of Malcolm, was Governor of Dumbarton
Castle. He accompanied the Queen-Dowager to France in 1550 and was
appointed Great Chamberlain of Scotland for life in 1553. He died in
Paris, France, on 15 Dec 1558 following a food poisoning in Dieppe on
28 Nov, which killed three in a party of royal deputies that same
night. They had refused to allow the Dauphin to be crowned in Scottish
Regalia, leaving the suspicion that the deaths were deliberate.

John, fifth Lord FLEMING, second son of Malcolm FLEMING and Janet
STEWART, sat in the Parliament of Scotland 10 Aug 1560. He was made
Governor of Dumbarton Castle in 1565, but lost it, when it was taken by
surprise by Capt. Thomas Crawford of Jordan Hill on 2 Apr 1571. He was
with Mary STUART of Scotland in her flight from the Battle of Langside
near Glasgow, 13 May 1568, and aided her escape to England. Being on
the wrong side of the royal struggle, his lands were forfeited by
Parliament 18 Nov 1569. He died 6 Sep 1572, and was succeeded by his
eldest son.

John, sixth Lord FLEMING (b. 1567) was restored to the estates
forfeited by his father in 1579 and was returned heir to his mother,
father, uncle and grandfather in their whole lands on 26 Jul 1580. His
offices and powers increased under James VI of Scotland (James I of
England), and he was admitted a member of the Privy Council on 14 Dec
1598. He was advanced to the dignity of Earl of Wigtown, Lord FLEMING
and Cumbernauld by patent dated at Whitehall 19 Mar 1606 and formally
invested at Perth 1 Jul 1606. He died Apr 1619, after many years
service to the King.

Among his twelve legitimate children were his oldest son John, Second
Earl of Wigtown and seventh Lord FLEMING (baptized abt 9 Dec 1589) and
the next legitimate son, James of Boghall (Boghall castle being the
family seat in Biggar), who was granted a charter of lands by his
father on 10 Apr 1593. He also had a natural son, ___ FLEMING, to whom
he granted an instrument of premonition for redeeming the lands of
Edmonstone (Edmondstone Castle is 3.5 miles NNE of Biggar in
Lanarkshire) dated 5 Apr 1594 [Charter Chest #590]. This was probably
at the time of his christening at one year of age [children in the year
before christening were termed 'Chrisomes' and had not entered the
formalities of the world]. This would make him [biologically if not
formally] the 'third' son, or, perhaps, if christened and/or granted
the instrument at a later age due to circumstances, the [biological]
'second' son as asserted by tradition. These natural lines do not
appear to have been explored. A status of natural child would also help
to answer the question: Why would someone from a family so closely
allied with the Stuarts leave for America at the apparent height of
STUART power?

Thus, quite possibly a Sir (or son) Thomas FLEMING could have emigrated
to Virginia, possibly after the settlement of his father's estate at
about age 26 or 27 [by that time the family patron, James VI, was old
and distant, and it might have been prudent, as a natural child, to
take whatever had been granted and to look elsewhere], or the
emigrant(s) may have been his son(s), John (Tarleton and Charles), in
a time of new economic troubles in Scotland under Cromwell -- or, of
course, some or none of the above.

.. and so it goes with much of early genealogy... you are never quite
sure... but the ladies are out there pushing for their royal lineages!

Lesson for 95

Bob Juch

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Juch [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 10:06 AM
Subject: Anne FLEMING wife of Josias PAYNE

I just joined this list for assistance in determining the ancestry of the Anne FLEMING who married Josias PAYNE 14 June 1732 in Pittsylvania Co., Virginia. They are my 6th great grandparents. They also are the grandparents of Dolly PAYNE TODD MADISON, the wife of President James MADISON.
. . .

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