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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-07 > 0994894960


From: Kay Allen AG <>
Subject: Re: Emma Meinill
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:42:40 -0700
References: <97.17ed4b29.287b9acb@aol.com><9ifh8n$g5u$1@neptunium.btinternet.com><01c001c10a50$e7172640$020a0a0a@cbevanrosie>


The Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls show Emma and Cecily as sisters of Robert I,
and as aunts of Isabel and Joan. There is no William to be seen anywhere.
Please see my earlier posts.

Kay Allen AG

Rosie Bevan wrote:

> Hi Robert
>
> I think two generations may be confused here. Mardi Carter, MichaelAnne
> Guido and myself have just completed a study of the Longford family and we
> found the following.
>
> Isabel and Joan Meynell are assumed to daughters and heirs of Robert fil
> Robert de Meynell whom Sewal fil Henry had custody, though I have never seen
> it stated. Joan died s.p. in 1226 after 4 marriages when Isabel was found to
> be her heir. Isabel died s.p. in 1228 after 3 marriages when her cousins
> were found to be her heirs. These were Mathew Hathersage and Alicia de
> Cridling.( Pipe Roll 72 313 12 Hen III Mathew de Hathersage and Alicia de
> Criddeling 200m for having seizin of the land of Isabel Meisnill, cousin of
> the said Mathew and Alice, which was held of the king in capite)
>
> This means the descent would go like this
>
> 1.GILBERT de MEYNELL (of Dalby, Leics.?)
> 2.ROBERT de MEYNELL in 1162 held 5 fees of Barlborough, Whitewell,
> Clune, Stretton, Egstow, and Hanley
> 3.ROBERT de MEYNELL paid 100s relief for one knight's fee of the
> Honour of Peverel in 1186 d.s.p.m.1194
> 4.ISABEL (c1182-d.s.p.1228)
> + Sewal fil Henry d.c 1210 (Pipe no 40 r6 6 Ric I 1195 Sewal fil
> Henry 50 pounds for having the daughters of Robert de Maisnil and their
> lands.)
> + John de Neville (Pipe No 56 r 12 12 John (1210) New Oblations
> John de Nevill 700m for his passage, and for having to wife Isabella, the
> widow of Sewell fil Henry, with her whole inheritance and dower ; H de
> Neville and Philip de Ulecotes are bail for 300m.) d. by 1220
> + Ralph Musard (Pipe No 70 r 11 10 Henry III 1225 "Ralph Musard
> 15m for having the land which was Walter de Godardsvill's and Johanna, his
> wife, sister of Isabelle, wife of the said Ralph, and of whom Isabel was
> next heir when the king took the homage of the said Ralph, and conceded by
> the fine that he should have seizin of the said land, by the pledge of Wm de
> Meinel 3m, Hy de Cubbele 3m, Roger fil Propositus 3m, Roger Parmenter 2m, Wm
> fil Hugh 2m and John de Bosco 2m)
> 4. JOAN d.s.p. 1226
> + Sewal de Munjoy (Pipe no 45 r 15 1 John 1199 Sewell fil Henry
> 100 and 1 dextria and 1 palfrey which Com G ought to have received for the
> marriage of his sister Isabelle to Sewell, his nephew (nepos)
> + Philip de Ulecote (Pipe no 46 r12 John 1200 Philip de Ulecotes
> 100 pounds and 1 dextria for having to wife Johanna the sister [in law] of
> Sewell fil Henry)
> + Oliver de Albini d.c.1225
> + Walter de Godarvil (Pipe no.70 r 11 10 Hen III 1225 Walter
> Godardvill owes 200m for having Joan to wife as mentioned in roll 8)
> 3.WILLIAM DE MEYNELL (William fil Robert)
> 4.EMMA DE MEYNELL
> + Mathew de Hathersage
> 5.MATHEW de HATHERSAGE d.s.p. 1259
> + Annora Mark, da of Philip Mark
> 5. CECILIA de HATHERSAGE
> + NIGEL de LONGFORD (1205- (Pipe Roll 104 r17 44 Hen
> III 1259 New Oblations
> Nigel de Langford and Matilde de Gousle, next heirs of Mathew Hathersage)
> 5.MATILDA de HATHERSAGE
> + Gousell
> 4.CECILIA de MEYNELL
> + ADAM de CRIDLING
> 5.ADAM de CRIDLING
>
> My understanding of property law in the early 13th century is that if
> Cecilia and Emma Meynell had been sisters of Isabel and Joan, their rights
> as heirs on the death of Joan would have been recognised. However they are
> not mentioned at all.
>
> Their placement poses some difficulty because if they are sisters of Robert
> (aunts of Isabel and Joan), then they can not be siblings of William Meynell
> ancestor of the Meynells of Langley Meynell as the pedigree stands, for he
> and his descendants would have been heirs to Isabel too. William fil Robert
> is listed in the Scutage of Knight's fees of 3 John at 5 fees which
> indicates he was heir to Robert I Meynell with the Meynell inheritance
> intact. Could it be that Emma and Cecilia were actually daughters and heirs
> of William fil Robert de Meisnel? If this is so then there is a flaw in the
> accepted Meinell pedigree for Hugh fl 1251 could not be (legitimate) son of
> William. In addition it is clear that it is at this point that the 5 knights
> fees disappear from Meinell hands and divided between (Hathersage >Longford
> + Goussel) + (Cridling) hands. Chronologically Emma and Cecilia are
> contemporaries of Isabel and Joan, which has added to the confusion.
>
> I have just noticed Kay's messages come up. Thanks Kay. The pedigree from
> the Plea Rolls which is agrees with the evidence presented here. The other
> Banco Roll pedigree presented in 9 Edw II (about 80 years after the deaths
> of Joan and Isabel) as far as I can make out appears incorrect.
>
> I would welcome comments on any flaws in this discussion.
>
> Caveat Emptor. If anyone copies this pedigree, then they do so at their own
> risk!
>
> Cheers
>
> Rosie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert O'Connor" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: Emma Meinill
>
> >
> > > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill, wife of
> > > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter of
> > Robert
> > > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional information.
> > >
> >
> > Here is what I have:
> >
> > GILBERT de MEYNELL (3), of Langley Meynell, Co. Derby, England., M -- .
> He
> > had issue:
> >
> > Burke's LG 1937, p 1587
> >
> > ROBERT de MEYNELL (3), of Langley Meynell, Co. Derby., He held 5 knight's
> > fees of Ralph Fitz Hubert, of which Langley was one. M -- . Died by
> 1195.
> > He had issue: Burke's LG 1937, p 1587
> >
> > 1.Stephen.
> > 2.Isabel, M 1st Sewallis de Shirley, of Shirley, Co. Derby. (In 1167 he
> > acknowledged himself as the holder of 9 knight's fees in Derbyshire. Died
> > before 1210) (See SHIRLEY). M 2nd John de Neville (Died before 1220). M
> > 3rd Ralf de Mustard. Died 1228. Burke's P 1970, p 998
> > CTG IV, p 2
> > 3.WILLIAM (2), of whom we presently.
> > 4.Emma, M Matthew Hathersage (according to the Pipe Rolls he did homage
> for
> > the lands of his sister-in-law Isabel de Neville, Aug. 1228). Derby Arch
> >
> >
> >

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