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From: "Rosie Bevan" <>
Subject: Re: Emma Meinill
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:04:11 +1200
References: <97.17ed4b29.287b9acb@aol.com><9ifh8n$g5u$1@neptunium.btinternet.com><01c001c10a50$e7172640$020a0a0a@cbevanrosie> <3B4CE470.B34B0062@pacbell.net>


Hi Kay

Yes, I noticed there was no mention of William which is a bit of a
conundrum. If that is the case, then William de Meynell (father of Hugh fl
1251) cannot be son of Robert I as stated in Burke's Landed Gentry and in
Meynell of Langley Meynell pedigrees, or his issue would have been heir to
Robert too. William and his issue must be descendants of Gilbert Meynell.
The Meynells continued holding land of Mathew Hathersage and his descendants
for in Kirby's Quest 22-25 Hen III 1238-1240, there is mention under
Totingley of Egidius Meynell holding of William de Meynell his brother for
one third of a knight's fee. William held of the heirs of Mathew de
Hathersage, and they of the king in chief.

I am dubious about the early part of the pedigree given for the presentation
to Whitewell church. For reasons given in my last post, Emma and Cecily were
unlikely to have been sisters of Isabel and Joan. In addition, this pedigree
was recorded some 80-90 years after the deaths of Isabel and Joan and liable
to error. The other pedigree, however is contemporary, and therefore more
likely to be accurate. There is also the problem of determining the meaning
of the word "Consanguineas". If we take it literally then Mathew de
Hathersage and Matilda Goushill would have been cousins of Isabel Meinell.
Constructing the pedigree, then

1.GILBERT de MEYNELL (of Dalby, Leics.?) married an heir of Ralph Fitz
Hubert
2.ROBERT de MEYNELL in 1162 held 5 fees of Barlborough, Whitewell,
Clune, Stretton, Egstow, and Hanley
3. EMMA DE MEYNELL
+ Mathew de Hathersage
4. MATHEW de HATHERSAGE d.s.p. 1259
+ Annora Mark, da of Philip Mark
4. CECILIA de HATHERSAGE
+ Nigel de Longford (1205- (Pipe Roll 104 r17 44 Hen
III 1259 New Oblations Nigel de Langford and Matilde de Gousle, next heirs
of Mathew Hathersage)
4.MATILDA de HATHERSAGE
+ Walter Goushill
3.CECILIA de MEYNELL
+ ADAM de CRIDLING
4.ADAM de CRIDLING
3.ROBERT de MEYNELL paid 100s relief for one knight's fee of
the
Honour of Peverel in 1186 d.s.p.m.1194
4.ISABEL (c1182-d.s.p.1228)
+ Sewal fil Henry d.c 1210 (Pipe no 40 r6 6 Ric I 1195 Sewal fil
Henry 50 pounds for having the daughters of Robert de Maisnil and their
lands.)
+ John de Neville (Pipe No 56 r 12 12 John (1210) New Oblations
John de Nevill 700m for his passage, and for having to wife Isabella, the
widow of Sewell fil Henry, with her whole inheritance and dower ; H de
Neville and Philip de Ulecotes are bail for 300m.) d. by 1220
+ Ralph Musard (Pipe No 70 r 11 10 Henry III 1225 "Ralph Musard
15m for having the land which was Walter de Godardsvill's and Johanna,
hiswife, sister of Isabelle, wife of the said Ralph, and of whom Isabel was
next heir when the king took the homage of the said Ralph, and conceded by
the fine that he should have seizin of the said land, by the pledge of Wm de
Meinel 3m, Hy de Cubbele 3m, Roger fil Propositus 3m, Roger Parmenter 2m, Wm
fil Hugh 2m and John de Bosco 2m)
4. JOAN d.s.p. 1226
+ Sewal de Munjoy (Pipe no 45 r 15 1 John 1199 Sewell fil Henry
100 and 1 dextria and 1 palfrey which Com G ought to have received for the
marriage of his sister Isabelle to Sewell, his nephew (nepos)
+ Philip de Ulecote (Pipe no 46 r12 John 1200 Philip de Ulecotes
100 pounds and 1 dextria for having to wife Johanna the sister [in law] of
Sewell fil Henry)
+ Oliver de Albini d.c.1225
+ Walter de Godarvil (Pipe no.70 r 11 10 Hen III 1225 Walter
Godardvill owes 200m for having Joan to wife as mentioned in roll 8)

How does this strike you?

Cheers

Rosie

.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Allen AG" <>
To: "Rosie Bevan" <>
Cc: <>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: Emma Meinill


> The Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls show Emma and Cecily as sisters of
Robert I,
> and as aunts of Isabel and Joan. There is no William to be seen anywhere.
> Please see my earlier posts.
>
> Kay Allen AG
>
> Rosie Bevan wrote:
>
> > Hi Robert
> >
> > I think two generations may be confused here. Mardi Carter, MichaelAnne
> > Guido and myself have just completed a study of the Longford family and
we
> > found the following.
> >
> > Isabel and Joan Meynell are assumed to daughters and heirs of Robert fil
> > Robert de Meynell whom Sewal fil Henry had custody, though I have never
seen
> > it stated. Joan died s.p. in 1226 after 4 marriages when Isabel was
found to
> > be her heir. Isabel died s.p. in 1228 after 3 marriages when her cousins
> > were found to be her heirs. These were Mathew Hathersage and Alicia de
> > Cridling.( Pipe Roll 72 313 12 Hen III Mathew de Hathersage and Alicia
de
> > Criddeling 200m for having seizin of the land of Isabel Meisnill, cousin
of
> > the said Mathew and Alice, which was held of the king in capite)
> >
> > This means the descent would go like this
> >
> > 1.GILBERT de MEYNELL (of Dalby, Leics.?)
> > 2.ROBERT de MEYNELL in 1162 held 5 fees of Barlborough, Whitewell,
> > Clune, Stretton, Egstow, and Hanley
> > 3.ROBERT de MEYNELL paid 100s relief for one knight's fee of the
> > Honour of Peverel in 1186 d.s.p.m.1194
> > 4.ISABEL (c1182-d.s.p.1228)
> > + Sewal fil Henry d.c 1210 (Pipe no 40 r6 6 Ric I 1195 Sewal
fil
> > Henry 50 pounds for having the daughters of Robert de Maisnil and their
> > lands.)
> > + John de Neville (Pipe No 56 r 12 12 John (1210) New
Oblations
> > John de Nevill 700m for his passage, and for having to wife Isabella,
the
> > widow of Sewell fil Henry, with her whole inheritance and dower ; H de
> > Neville and Philip de Ulecotes are bail for 300m.) d. by 1220
> > + Ralph Musard (Pipe No 70 r 11 10 Henry III 1225 "Ralph
Musard
> > 15m for having the land which was Walter de Godardsvill's and Johanna,
his
> > wife, sister of Isabelle, wife of the said Ralph, and of whom Isabel was
> > next heir when the king took the homage of the said Ralph, and conceded
by
> > the fine that he should have seizin of the said land, by the pledge of
Wm de
> > Meinel 3m, Hy de Cubbele 3m, Roger fil Propositus 3m, Roger Parmenter
2m, Wm
> > fil Hugh 2m and John de Bosco 2m)
> > 4. JOAN d.s.p. 1226
> > + Sewal de Munjoy (Pipe no 45 r 15 1 John 1199 Sewell fil
Henry
> > 100 and 1 dextria and 1 palfrey which Com G ought to have received for
the
> > marriage of his sister Isabelle to Sewell, his nephew (nepos)
> > + Philip de Ulecote (Pipe no 46 r12 John 1200 Philip de
Ulecotes
> > 100 pounds and 1 dextria for having to wife Johanna the sister [in law]
of
> > Sewell fil Henry)
> > + Oliver de Albini d.c.1225
> > + Walter de Godarvil (Pipe no.70 r 11 10 Hen III 1225 Walter
> > Godardvill owes 200m for having Joan to wife as mentioned in roll 8)
> > 3.WILLIAM DE MEYNELL (William fil Robert)
> > 4.EMMA DE MEYNELL
> > + Mathew de Hathersage
> > 5.MATHEW de HATHERSAGE d.s.p. 1259
> > + Annora Mark, da of Philip Mark
> > 5. CECILIA de HATHERSAGE
> > + NIGEL de LONGFORD (1205- (Pipe Roll 104 r17 44
Hen
> > III 1259 New Oblations
> > Nigel de Langford and Matilde de Gousle, next heirs of Mathew
Hathersage)
> > 5.MATILDA de HATHERSAGE
> > + Gousell
> > 4.CECILIA de MEYNELL
> > + ADAM de CRIDLING
> > 5.ADAM de CRIDLING
> >
> > My understanding of property law in the early 13th century is that if
> > Cecilia and Emma Meynell had been sisters of Isabel and Joan, their
rights
> > as heirs on the death of Joan would have been recognised. However they
are
> > not mentioned at all.
> >
> > Their placement poses some difficulty because if they are sisters of
Robert
> > (aunts of Isabel and Joan), then they can not be siblings of William
Meynell
> > ancestor of the Meynells of Langley Meynell as the pedigree stands, for
he
> > and his descendants would have been heirs to Isabel too. William fil
Robert
> > is listed in the Scutage of Knight's fees of 3 John at 5 fees which
> > indicates he was heir to Robert I Meynell with the Meynell inheritance
> > intact. Could it be that Emma and Cecilia were actually daughters and
heirs
> > of William fil Robert de Meisnel? If this is so then there is a flaw in
the
> > accepted Meinell pedigree for Hugh fl 1251 could not be (legitimate) son
of
> > William. In addition it is clear that it is at this point that the 5
knights
> > fees disappear from Meinell hands and divided between (Hathersage
>Longford
> > + Goussel) + (Cridling) hands. Chronologically Emma and Cecilia are
> > contemporaries of Isabel and Joan, which has added to the confusion.
> >
> > I have just noticed Kay's messages come up. Thanks Kay. The pedigree
from
> > the Plea Rolls which is agrees with the evidence presented here. The
other
> > Banco Roll pedigree presented in 9 Edw II (about 80 years after the
deaths
> > of Joan and Isabel) as far as I can make out appears incorrect.
> >
> > I would welcome comments on any flaws in this discussion.
> >
> > Caveat Emptor. If anyone copies this pedigree, then they do so at their
own
> > risk!
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Rosie
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert O'Connor" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:24 AM
> > Subject: Re: Emma Meinill
> >
> > >
> > > > Does anyone in the group have the ancestry of Emma Meinill,
wife of
> > > > Matthew Hathersage, (d. before 1216)? I have Emma as the daughter
of
> > > Robert
> > > > Meinill of Langley Meinill, Derbyshire, but no additional
information.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Here is what I have:
> > >
> > > GILBERT de MEYNELL (3), of Langley Meynell, Co. Derby, England., M --
.
> > He
> > > had issue:
> > >
> > > Burke's LG 1937, p 1587
> > >
> > > ROBERT de MEYNELL (3), of Langley Meynell, Co. Derby., He held 5
knight's
> > > fees of Ralph Fitz Hubert, of which Langley was one. M -- . Died by
> > 1195.
> > > He had issue: Burke's LG 1937, p 1587
> > >
> > > 1.Stephen.
> > > 2.Isabel, M 1st Sewallis de Shirley, of Shirley, Co. Derby. (In 1167
he
> > > acknowledged himself as the holder of 9 knight's fees in Derbyshire.
Died
> > > before 1210) (See SHIRLEY). M 2nd John de Neville (Died before 1220).
M
> > > 3rd Ralf de Mustard. Died 1228. Burke's P 1970, p 998
> > > CTG IV, p 2
> > > 3.WILLIAM (2), of whom we presently.
> > > 4.Emma, M Matthew Hathersage (according to the Pipe Rolls he did
homage
> > for
> > > the lands of his sister-in-law Isabel de Neville, Aug. 1228). Derby
Arch
> > >
> > >
> > >
>

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