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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1010837220


From: "Chris Phillips" <>
Subject: Re: A New Bohun Daughter Discovered
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:07:00 -0000


John P. Ravilious wrote:
> My presumption, if you will, is that the original complete manor of
Bisley was originally held by the de Breuse or de Braose family: from
whence, a portion (a quarter, as per your post_ came through Eleanor de
Braose to de Bohun, and the other into the Mortimer family. The 'manor of
Bisley' acquired by William de Bohun, noted above, would then be the
remainder (or part of the remainder) held by Roger de Mortimer in 1330.

Cris Nash wrote:
> But I do
> have the sense that the history of the Bohuns' possession of Bisley
> may be as you say, John, but perhaps still a bit more complex, to
> become clearer when we've sorted the Humphreys. We may end up
> thoroughly Haggerd but Bohun companions for sure.


From the evidence posted by Douglas Richardson, Theobald de Verdun held a
quarter of the hundred of Bisley in right of his wife Margery, and Peter
Corbet held half of the hundred in right of his wife Joan. According to
Complete Peerage vol.3, p.417, this Joan was the daughter of Ralph de
Mortimer by Gladys Ddu. So, together with the evidence about the Mortimers
later holding a "manor of Bisley", it looks as though there was a division
of this land between the Mortimers and the Bohuns at some point.

I don't see in what's been posted any direct evidence of the Braoses holding
land at Bisley.

Cris Nash previously conjectured that Eleanor, second wife of John de Verdun
(Theobald's father), might have been a daughter of Humphrey de Bohun
(d.1265). The Complete Peerage (vol.12, part 2, p.248) had suggested Eleanor
might have been a Bohun, but the only evidence cited is the existence of a
seal, "said to be hers", bearing the Bohun and Verdun arms (citing Staffs
Historical Collections 1913, p.298). Now that we have clearer evidence that
John's son Theobald married a Bohun, maybe it's likelier that this seal
belonged to Margery.

Unless I've missed a flaw in the evidence, it does seem pretty clear that
Margery was the daughter of Humphrey de Bohun (d.1265). Complete Peerage
gives this Humphrey two wives. The second, Joan de Quency, was a coheir and
died without issue. But there may be a difficulty of consanguinity in making
Margery the daughter of the first wife, Eleanor de Braose. That would mean
that Margery's son, Theobald de Verdun, married his second cousin, because
his wife, Maud de Mortimer, was a granddaughter of Maud de Braose, Eleanor's
sister. Could Humphrey de Bohun have had a third, unrecorded wife? Or could
Margery even have been illegitimate?

Chris Phillips






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