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From: Cristopher Nash <c@windsong.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A New Bohun Daughter Discovered
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:17:42 +0000
References: <00e101c19b61$a4b2d180$e23186d9@oemcomputer>
In-Reply-To: <00e101c19b61$a4b2d180$e23186d9@oemcomputer>


Chris Phillips <> wrote -

>Cris Nash previously conjectured that Eleanor, second wife of John de Verdun
>(Theobald's father), might have been a daughter of Humphrey de Bohun
>(d.1265). The Complete Peerage (vol.12, part 2, p.248) had suggested Eleanor
>might have been a Bohun, but the only evidence cited is the existence of a
>seal, "said to be hers", bearing the Bohun and Verdun arms (citing Staffs
>Historical Collections 1913, p.298).

Yes, this is Hagger's source (which he takes unproblematically) for
the presumption -- combined with the fact that Alianor and John de
Verdun "had a son Humphrey, who went on to give lands in Debden to
Humphrey de Bohun in exchange for Nuthampstead before his death in
1285" (pp. 212 and 219, citing PRO, DL25/L.1471 and Croxden
Chronicle, s.a.1285, fo. 76v).

Note this date and the ambiguous "his".

>Now that we have clearer evidence that John's son Theobald married a
>Bohun, maybe it's likelier that this seal belonged to Margery.

Possibly - and I'd want to see more details (wouldn't you?) about the
physical placement of the seal since though it left Hagger happy it
evidently allowed for Salty uncertainty. (Pace John and Dolly!) If
Hagger'd seen it firsthand he'd not have needed the Salt ref., which
must then take precedence for the nonce....

>Unless I've missed a flaw in the evidence, it does seem pretty clear that
>Margery was the daughter of Humphrey de Bohun (d.1265). Complete Peerage
>gives this Humphrey two wives. The second, Joan de Quency, was a coheir and
>died without issue. But there may be a difficulty of consanguinity in making
>Margery the daughter of the first wife, Eleanor de Braose. That would mean
>that Margery's son, Theobald de Verdun, married his second cousin, because
>his wife, Maud de Mortimer, was a granddaughter of Maud de Braose, Eleanor's
>sister. Could Humphrey de Bohun have had a third, unrecorded wife? Or could
>Margery even have been illegitimate?

Well seen; curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice. Douglas, are you with us?

Cris
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