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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1010860501


From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: A New Bohun Daughter Discovered
Date: 12 Jan 2002 10:35:01 -0800
References: <00e101c19b61$a4b2d180$e23186d9@oemcomputer>, <3C403CCF.296D33B7@DUMPbtinternet.com>


Renia <> wrote in message news:<>...
> Chris Phillips wrote:
>
> > > From the evidence posted by Douglas Richardson, Theobald de Verdun held a
> > quarter of the hundred of Bisley in right of his wife Margery, and Peter
> > Corbet held half of the hundred in right of his wife Joan. According to
> > Complete Peerage vol.3, p.417, this Joan was the daughter of Ralph de
> > Mortimer by Gladys Ddu. So, together with the evidence about the Mortimers
> > later holding a "manor of Bisley", it looks as though there was a division
> > of this land between the Mortimers and the Bohuns at some point.
> >
> > > Cris Nash previously conjectured that Eleanor, second wife of John de Verdun
> > (Theobald's father), might have been a daughter of Humphrey de Bohun
> > (d.1265). The Complete Peerage (vol.12, part 2, p.248) had suggested Eleanor
> > might have been a Bohun, but the only evidence cited is the existence of a
> > seal, "said to be hers", bearing the Bohun and Verdun arms (citing Staffs
> > Historical Collections 1913, p.298). Now that we have clearer evidence that
> > John's son Theobald married a Bohun, maybe it's likelier that this seal
> > belonged to Margery.
> >
> > Unless I've missed a flaw in the evidence, it does seem pretty clear that
> > Margery was the daughter of Humphrey de Bohun (d.1265). Complete Peerage
> > gives this Humphrey two wives. The second, Joan de Quency, was a coheir and
> > died without issue. But there may be a difficulty of consanguinity in making
> > Margery the daughter of the first wife, Eleanor de Braose. That would mean
> > that Margery's son, Theobald de Verdun, married his second cousin, because
> > his wife, Maud de Mortimer, was a granddaughter of Maud de Braose, Eleanor's
> > sister. Could Humphrey de Bohun have had a third, unrecorded wife? Or could
> > Margery even have been illegitimate?
> >
> > Chris Phillips
>
> I'm not really following this thread, but what's the difficulty with 2nd-cousin
> consanguinity?
>
> Renia

Dear Renia ~

There is no difficulty is a second cousin marriage. Such marriages
took place in this period, but usually nothing closer that that.
Sometimes the couple obtained the required dispensation. Sometimes
they didn't. Sometimes they obtained a dispensation, which
dispensation doesn't appear in the published calendars.

As I indicated in an earlier post, the absense of a dispensation
proves nothing. It is only when you have a dispensation that you have
anything to analyze. Even then, I've found at least three instances
of where people deliberately misled the Pope. The three examples
include King Edward III, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, and Philip Basset and
his wife, Countess Ela.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

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