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From: (John Ravilious)
Subject: Re: CP - ES correction needed?
Date: 18 Jun 2004 20:49:43 -0700
References: <002001c45583$695e9720$c3b4fea9@email>
Friday, 18 June, 2004
Dear Leo,
It does appear CP is correct. See the following pedigree of the
descendants of Alan de Dinan (grandfather of Eleanor de Vitré), which
indicates that his son Roland dvp before 1190; Emma de Dinan was the
daughter of Alan, and sister of Roland.
Hope this is helpful.
Cheers,
John
1 Alan de Dinan[1]
----------------------------------------
Death:bef 1166[2]
Occ:vicomte de Dinan
Father:Geoffroi II de Dinan (->1122)
Mother:Orieldis
of Burton, co. Northants.
seigneur de Dinan-Becherel
champion of Henry I in tournament against that of King Louis VI of
France
at Gisors, ca. 1109 [DD 433[3]]
supporter of the Empress Matilda against Stephen, from 1135[3]
'Alan, the grantee of Henry I, was succeeded as tenant at will in the
whole of Burton by Roland de Dinant, who was holding it in 1166 and
1173.'[2]
identification as father of Emma de Dinan, wife of Robert de Vitre by
Todd A. Farmerie (citing CP; also re: Aginore de Penthievre as wife
of Alan, not Oliver- as per K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants
p. 434[3])[4]
see also Ancestral Roots 7th ed., p. 178, citing 'The Moriarity
Notebooks,
vol.13'[5]
Spouse:Aginore of Richmond[4]
Father:Stephen, count of Brittany and lord of Richmond (-1135)
Mother:Hawisa de Guincamp(->1134)
Children:Emma (-1208)
Roland (-<1190)
1.1 Emma de Dinan[1]
----------------------------------------
Death:18 Dec 1208[4]
Spouse:Robert III, seigneur de Vitre[1]
Death:ca 1184[4]
Father:Robert II de Vitre (-ca1161)
Mother:Emma de la Guerche
Children:Eleanor
Andrew
Alan (-1197)
1.1.1a Eleanor de Vitre*[1]
----------------------------------------
Countess of Salisbury
she m. lstly William Paynel,
2ndly Gilbert de Tillieres,
3rdly William, Earl of Salisbury [order possibly different],
4thly, Gilbert Malesmains [as his second wife][1], [6],[2]
'In Nov 1177 Andrew de Vitre gave to William son of Fulk Paynel,
with his sister in free marriage, that moiety of his land in
Normandy
that was jointly divided by Fulk Paynel and himself, which he had
chosen in Andrew's manors of Ryes, Trungy, and Ducy [all in
Calvados], with a yearly rent of 20 li. from his manor of Cooling,
Suffolk. '[2]
Concerning her maritagium, 'Battle Abbey Roll' states,
' Gilbert Malesmains, in 1198 held Cooling in right of his wife,
together with the lands in England of her dower, viz. Westcote
in Surrey, Kingsbury and Edgeware, Middlesex, Wooton, in Oxon,
and Gatesden in Herts, and held them to the year of the conquest
of Normandy by Philip Augustus, when they were in the King's
hands as an escheat of the land of the Normans."- _T Stapleton._[7]
NOTE: She was previously held to be the one wife of William, Earl of
Salisbury and the mother of his heiress Ela [cf. CP Vol.
XI(Salisbury),
p. 379][1]
Given the probable birth date of Ela based on her children's
birth,
she was undoubtedly not born in 1191 but sometime earlier (1187
?),
and the daughter of a previous wife not recorded in CP.
Peter Sutton suggests the 'Gundre comitissa' noted in the Liber Vitae
of
Durham[8],[9]
had a charter for a fair to be held at Cowlinge, Suffolk:
'feria gr 2 Oct 1225, by K Hen III to Alienor countess of Salisbury.
To
be held at the manor until the king came of age (RLC, ii, p. 63).
Order to the sh of Suffolk to allow Alienora, countess of Salisbury
to hold the fair regardless of the king’s prohibition of all
markets
and fairs raised during the minority, dated 16 Jul 1227
(RLC, ii, p. 192b).'[10]
Spouse:William, Earl of Salisbury [3rd husband]
Death:1196[1]
Father:Patrick de Salisbury (-ca1168)
Mother:Alice of Ponthieu (-1174)
Marr:ca 1190[1]
Children:Ela (ca1187-1261)
1.1.1b Eleanor de Vitre* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse:Gilbert de Tillieres [2nd Husband]
Death:1190[6]
Children:Gilbert
Juliana
Joanna, m. Thomas Malesmains
1.1.2 Andre [Andrew] de Vitre
----------------------------------------
seigneur de Vitre
heir of his father
gave maritagium to his sister Eleanor in Normandy and Suffolk,
Nov 1177 [2]
1.1.3 Alan de Dinan
----------------------------------------
Death:1197[11]
Occ:seigneur de Dinan
of Burton, co. Northants.
seigneur de Dinan
adopted as heir by uncle Roland de Dinan[11] (succeeded 1190 or
before - DD 434, sub Rolland de Dinan[3])
Spouse:Clemence de Fougeres
Death:1252[12]
Father:Guillaume de Fougeres (-1187)
Mother:Agatha de Hummet
Children:Gervaise (->1236)
1.2 Roland de Dinan
----------------------------------------
Death:bef 1190, d.s.p.[2],[3]
of Burton, co. Northants.
held lands in Hartland, Devon (lost due to his support of Breton
rebellions
against Henry II of England);
justiciar in Brittany for Geoffrey, duke of Brittany (Henry II's son)
[DD 434][3]
adopted his nephew Alan as his heir [11], [12]
tenant of Burton in 1166 and 1173[2]
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the
United Kingdom.
2. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Eleanor de Vitre," August 15, 2002, paper copy:
library of John P. Ravilious, citations from Rosie Bevan :
, citation from Victoria County History of
Northants., vol. 3, p. 181 [which cites Red Book of Exchequer,
Rolls
series, 331-2; Great Roll of the Pipe (Pipe Roll Soc.), xi, 119;
xii,
54; xxi, p.53].
3. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002.
4. Mike Talbot, "Vitri," June 24, 1998,
additional commentary by Todd A. Farmerie ().
5. Frederick L. Weis (add/corr, Walter L Sheppard Jr.), "Ancestral
Roots of Certain American Colonists," Baltimore: Genealogical Pub.
Co.
6. John Carmi Parsons, "More Angevin Bastards," Sept 7, 1998,
7. Adrian Channing, "Malemaine was Joan Knowght," Jan 27, 2002,
cites DUCHESS OF CLEVELAND's "Battle
Abbey Roll", 1889, Vol ii pp 246-8, re: Malesmains.
8. Rosie Bevan, "Liber Vitae and the family of Roger and Ida Bigod,"
July 31, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, citations
from Rosie Bevan : , Liber Vitae Ecclesiae
Dunelmensis, Vol. 13: Nec Non Obituaria Duo Ejusdem Ecclesiae, ed.
J. Stevenson (1841), Vol. 136: A Collotype Facsimile of the
Original
Manuscript, ed. A. H. Thomson (1926), followup post by Rosie,
'Re: Liber Vitae...' Aug 5, 2002, notes
" Duncan' fil' ei' " correction, " Margareta soror ei' " addition.
9. Peter Sutton, "Liber Vitae and the family of Roger and Ida Bigod,"
August 1, 2002, paper copy: library of John P. Ravilious, based on
citations from Rosie Bevan : , Liber Vitae
Ecclesiae Dunelmensis, Vol. 13: Nec Non Obituaria Duo Ejusdem
Ecclesiae,
ed. J. Stevenson (1841), Vol. 136: A Collotype Facsimile of the
Original
Manuscript, ed. A. H. Thomson (1926).
10. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
11. Laurent Ohier, "Dinan," May 16, 1999,
12. Jim Stevens, "Earl Ranulf of Chester," Jan 23, 1998,
("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<002001c45583$695e9720$>...
> In CP XI page 378
> We find William FitzPatrick, Earl of Salisbury, marrying Eleanor de Vitré dayghter of Robert de Vitré and Emma, daughter of Alan de Dinan
>
> ES XIV Tafel 136
> Here we find that Robert III de Vitré married Emma de Dinan, widow of Hugues d'Allaye, and daughter of Roland.
>
> Can anyone establish whether Emma's father is Alan or Roland?
> Many thanks
> Leo van de Pas
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