GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-01 > 1106835166
From: "Douglas Richardson " <>
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Thomas de London, lord of Kidwelly?
Date: 27 Jan 2005 06:12:46 -0800
Dear Roger ~
My research (see copy of my earlier post below) indicates that Hawise
de London, wife of Patrick de Chaworth, was the heiress of Mabel de
Cantelowe in 1267, but no relationship is specified in the record. As
such, unless further documentation is forthcoming, I believe it is
overly optimistic to identify Hawise de London as Mabel de Cantelowe's
granddaughter on the basis of this record alone. It is certainly
possible that Mabel de Cantelowe was Hawise de London's paternal
grandmother, but it is equally possible that Mabel was Hawise's
paternal aunt or cousin, or a younger 2nd wife of her grandfather.
Also, I hasten to point out that Cantelowe was not necessarily Mabel's
maiden name. Rather, unless she was from a particularly lofty
pedigree, the surname Cantelowe is probably Mabel's married name at the
time of her death, not her maiden name. If anyone has additional
records which would shed light on Mabel de Cantelowe' kinship to Hawise
de London, I would appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup.
Elsewhere, I note that you have identified Hawise de London's mother,
Eve, as a possible daughter of Matthew de Torrington. This allegation
is doubtless derived from the usually reliable work, English Baronies,
by Sanders. Sanders showed that Eve's son by her 1st marriage, Henry
de Tracy, had a one fifth share of the Torrington estates. On this
basis, good people such as Mr. Weber have postulated that Henry de
Tracy's mother was a Torrington heiress. However, this is a rare
instance of where a person bought his interest and did not inherit it,
which fact Sanders overlooked. As such, there is no descent whatsoever
from the Torrington family. Rather, Eve's maritagium appears to have
been an estate in Westbury, Wiltshire which she held of the Fitz Warn
family. As such, she was almost certainly the daughter of Fulk Fitz
Warin, of Whittington, Shropshire, by his wife, Hawise de Dinan. The
given name Eve ran in the Fitz Warin family.
I further note that your post makes no mention of Hawise de London's
childless first marriage to Walter de Brewes, younger son of William de
Brewes by his wife, Maud, daughter of Richard de Clare, Earl of
Hertford. In Michaelmas term 1233 Walter and Hawise were suing the
abbot of Gloucester for the church of Hannington, Wiltshire. Walter de
Brewes died before 14 January 1234. Further details of Walter de
Brewes and his marriage to Hawise de London can be found in my
forthcoming book, Magna Carta Ancestry, scheduled for publication in
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF EARLIER POST:
Douglas Richardson Oct 7 2003, 10:33 am show options
From: (Douglas Richardson) - Find messages by
Date: 7 Oct 2003 10:33:18 -0700
Local: Tues, Oct 7 2003 10:33 am
Subject: Mabel de Cantelowe and Hawise de London
Dear Newsgroup ~
In 1998 Bill Kullman "on the Oregon Trail" posted a query about the
mother of Hawise de London, wife of Patrick de Chaworth. Hawise de
London figures in the ancestry of many people here on the newsgroup,
as she was the grandmother of Maud de Chaworth, wife of Henry of
Lancaster, Earl of Lancaster. In his post, Bill asked if Hawise's
mother was named Eve, or Mabel de Cantelowe/Cantilupe. Leo van de Pas
replied that according to Turton, Hawise's parents were Maurice de
"Londres" and his wife, Mabel de "Cantilupe." For interest sake, I've
copied both Bill's original post and Leo's reply below.
Elsewhere, I find in the newsgroup archives that John Ravilious has
identified Hawise de London's parents as Thomas de London and his
wife, Eve, widow of Oliver de Tracy. I believe John has Hawise'
parents correctly indentified. Who then was Mabel de Cantelowe?
My research indicates that Mabel de Cantelowe did exist and that she
was related in some manner to Hawise de London. This is indicated by
the following item which I found recently in the Patent Rolls:
Date: 2 Aug. 1267.
"Restitution to Hawise de London, as the king understands by
inquisition that she is heir to Mabel de Cantilupo, of an itinerant
forge in the forest of Dene, which Mabel had there and for which the
king some time ago gave Mabel 10l. a year for life, to hold to the
said Hawise in the same manner as Mabel and other ancestors of the
said Hawise used to hold it in the time of King John and other of the
king's predecessors, kings of England. By K., Sir Edward, and Roger
de Leyburn." [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1266-1272 (1913):
I also found mention of Mabel de Cantelowe in the inquisition of
Hawise de London's husband, Patrick de Chaworth (died 1257), which
information I have abstracted below:
Inquisition of Patrick de Chaworces alias de Chaors, de Chauurces, de
Chawrces, de Chawerches, etc.
Writ to the sheriff of Gloucester, 23 Sept. 42 Hen. III
Wilts. Extent, Sunday the eve of St. Martin.
Berewik manor (full extent given with names of tenants), including
pastures called Kyggesmers and la Sterte. 60s. rent are held by
exchange for life by Mabel de Cantelo alias de Cantilupe, and ought,
with the advowson of the church, to revert to the manor after her
death. [Reference: Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 1
The above record merely states that the manor and advowson of Berwick,
Wiltshire was held by Mabel de Cantelowe for life "by exchange" and
that on the death of Mabel, the property was to revert to Patrick de
Chaworth's heirs. There is no indication in the inquisition if or how
Patrick de Chaworth is related to Mabel de Cantelowe.
Query: If Hawise de London's parents were Thomas de London and his
wife, Eve, who then was Mabel de Cantelowe and how was she related to
Hawise? Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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From: (Leo van de Pas)
Subject: Re: de Londres
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Organization: RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative
At 07:21 PM 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't suppose that anyone knows who is the mother of Hawise de
>1274, Mabel de Cantilupe or Eva de Tracy who both seem to have m. Sir
>de Londres, Lord Kidwelly ?
>on the old oregon trail
According to Turton, page 97, her parents are :
Maurice de Londres and Mabel de Cantilupe
Mabel died in 1267, but no parents are recorded for her.
Hope this helps,
Leo van de Pas
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