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From: "John Higgins" <>
Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de Vitré
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 14:19:13 -0800
References: <1164418122.023029.170800@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com><002101c710b7$14aadcb0$8e778d47@labs.agilent.com><05a801c710da$cc2d1510$0300a8c0@Toshiba>


It's probably unwise at the moment to assume that Emma's father was Roland
rather than Alain or Olivier. I mentioned the ESNF reference simply to
indicate another viewpoint on her parentage - I have no idea if it's right,
and I can't readily identify which Roland de Dinan it's referring to. The
write-up on the Dinan family in Pére Anselme is very skeletal and
unsatisfactory.

I don't think it's clear yet which of the three men was Emma's father -
although I'm inclined to lean toward Alain, by a wife possibly named
Murielle as in the first message in this thread. But it is quite a stretch
to say that Murielle is the same person as Agnorie de Bretagne simply
because Moriarty is said to identify Agnorie [maybe wrongly] as the wife of
Alain.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
To: "John Higgins" <>; "Gen-Med"
<>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
Vitré


> I used to have the links as shown by Douglas Richardson but thanks to John
> Higgins they are now disconnected.
>
> A few questions remain. Emma's father Roland was he a son of Olivier and
> Agnorie? Which would extend the relationship by only one extra generation.
>
> Also there is another link, probably outside Richardson's guidline, and
that
> is the already pointed out descent from Harleve.
>
> Best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Higgins" <>
> To: "Gen-Med" <>
> Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 4:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
> Vitré
>
>
> FWIW, Père Anselme's work on the French nobility says that Agnorie de
> Bretagne mar. Olivier [not Alain] de Dinan, and the couple had two sons
and
> 1 daughter (unnamed). Also, Schwennicke's ESNF 14:136 sub Vitré says that
> Emma de Dinan, the mother of the Robert whose relationship is at issue
here,
> was the dau. of Roland de Dinan (not Olivier or Alain).
>
> There is a very well-sourced database of the Breton nobility available at
> www.noblessebreton.fr.st. This resource says that Emma was the dau. of
> Alain by an unnamed wife, while Alain's brother Olivier was mar. to
Agnorie
> de Bretagne, and they did not have a daughter Emma. The database cites
> works by Peter Meazey, including a monograph on the Dinan family - perhaps
> worth looking into.
>
> Clearly none of the sources say that Emma was the daughter of Agnorie de
> Bretagne. So the only source for this allegation is an unchecked
reference
> in Moriarty's notebooks, as cited in an unidentified print source. It's
> hard to see how it could be "a good bet" that "Alan de Dinan's wife was
the
> daughter of Count Stephen" [sic]. It seems to be "good" only because it
> supports the hypothesis of the relationship being investigated - which is
> certainly a circular argument.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Douglas Richardson" <>
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 5:28 PM
> Subject: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de
Vitré
>
>
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> During the course of research for the book, Plantagenet Ancestry
> (2004), I encountered an interesting charter issued by Arthur, Duke of
> Brittany, the ill fated nephew of King John, in which Duke Arthur
> referred to Robert de Vitré as his kinsman [Reference: J.H. Round,
> Calendar of Documents Preserved in France 1 (1899): 473]. At the time,
> I was unable to explain the kinship between the two men. I assumed
> that the matter would be resolved at some future point.
>
> Since that time, I've done additional research both on the Vitré
> family, as well as on kinship relationships stated in charters before
> 1250. As I've indicated in recent posts, my analysis of pre-1250
> charters indicates that acknowledged kinships in that time period
> invariably fell within the 4th degree of kindred. As such, it would
> appear that Duke Arthur and Robert de Vitré were almost certainly
> blood related within the 4th degree. But how?
>
> Reviewing Duke Arthur's ancestry, I find that his only Breton ancestry
> (and thus his only likely connection to Robert de Vitré) consists of
> paternal grandfather's parents, Alan of Brittany, and his wife, Bertha
> of Brittany. From what is known of Bertha of Brittany's immediate
> family, it is not likely that the Vitré connection comes through her.
> As for Alan of Brittany, his parents, Stephen (or Etienne), Count of
> Brittany, and his wife, Hawise, are known to have had a large family of
> children, including one alleged daughter, Agnorie, wife of Oliver de
> Dinan [see, for example, Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, 2
> (1984): 75 (sub Brittany)]. However, I elsewhere find it stated in
> print that Moriarty's Notebooks, Volume 13, identifies the husband of
> Agnorie of Brittany as Alan de Dinan, the brother of Oliver de Dinan.
> To date, however, I've unable to find any contemporary source which
> proves Agnorie's given name, or whether or not she married Oliver or
> Alan de Dinan. Nor have I been able to consult Moriarty's Notebooks to
> see what evidence he provided to substantiate his identification of
> Alan de Dinan's wife.
>
> Although other possibilities may exist, it seems a good bet that
> Moriarty is correct that Alan de Dinan's wife was the daughter of Count
> Stephen. My research indicates that Alan de Dinan and his wife were
> the maternal grandparents of Robert de Vitré, the acknowledged kinsman
> of Duke Arthur. If Alan de Dinan's wife was the daughter of Count
> Stephen, then Duke Arthur and Robert de Vitré would be related in the
> 4th and 3rd degrees of kindred as shown below:
>
> l. Stephen, Count of Brittany, died 1135.
> 2. Alan of Brittany, died 1146.
> 3. Conan IV, Duke of Brittany, died 1171.
> 4. Constance, Duchess of Brittany, died 1201, married Geoffrey, son of
> King Henry II of England.
> 5. Arthur, Duke of Brittany, died 1203.
>
> l. Stephen, Count of Brittany, died 1135.
> 2. [Agnorie?], married Alan de Dinan, died 1148.
> 3. Emma de Dinan, married Robert de Vitré.
> 4. Robert de Vitré, priest, died 1209.
>
> Elsewhere, I find that Bibliographie Bretonne, 1 (1971): 539 (sub
> Dinan) gives the name of the wife of Alan de Dinan as Murielle, not
> Agnorie. If correct, and, if Moriarty has correctly placed Alan de
> Dinan's wife as the daughter of Count Stephen, then the name of Count
> Stephen's daughter would obviously be Muriel, not Agnorie. Another
> good Breton resource, Bio-Bibliographie Bretonne, by René Kerviler
> also discusses the life of Alan de Dinan. But this account doesn't
> mention the name of Alan de Dinan's wife.
>
> For interest's sake, I've provided a list below of the numerous 17th
> Century New World immigrants who descend from Alan de Dinan (died
> 1148), whose wife is under discussion. Included on this list are two
> newly identified immigrants with royal ancestry, namely Dorothy
> (Beresford) Brodnax and Margaret (Touteville) Shepard.
>
> Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, William Asfordby, Barbara Aubrey,
> Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, John Baynard,
> Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, John
> Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,
> Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George,
> Giles & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen,
> Elizabeth, Martha & Peter Bulkeley, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough,
> Elizabeth Butler, Edward Carleton, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine,
> Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, William Clopton, St.
> Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane,
> & Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,
> Rowland Ellis, Agatha, Alice, Eleanor, George Elkington, Jane & Martha
> Eltonhead, William Farrar, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete,
> Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye,
> Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Edmund Hawes, Warham
> Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Thomas James, Edmund Jennings, Edmund,
> Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah
> Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane &
> Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas
> Lunsford, Simon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne,
> Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Anne & Katherine Marbury,
> Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need,
> John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge,
> Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry &
> William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard,
> Elizabeth Saint John, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall,
> Anthony Savage, William Skepper, Diane & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna
> Somerset, John Stockman, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey,
> Margaret Touteville, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington,
> Olive Welby, John West, Amy Willis, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley,
> Hawte Wyatt, Margaret Wyatt, Thomas Yale.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>
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