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From: "Merilyn Pedrick" <>
Subject: Re: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de Vitré
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 09:41:11 +1030 (Cen. Australia Standard Time)
References: <1164418122.023029.170800@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com>


Dear Douglas

According to my database, you appear to have once again left off James
Cudworth from your list of Colonial immigrants who descend from Emma de
Dinan. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the descent as follows:

1. Emma de Dinan

2. Eleanor de Vitre

3. Ela fitz Patrick, Countess of Salisbury

4. Ida Longspee

5. Maud de Beauchamp

6. Roger de Mowbray

7. John de Mowbray

8. John de Mowbray

9. John de Mowbray

10. John de Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk

11. Eleanor Mowbray

12. Eudo de Welles

13. Lionel Welles

14. Eleanor Welles

15. Ann Hoo

16. Margaret Copley

17. Edward Lewknor

18. Mary Lewknor

19. Mary Machell

20. James Cudworth

Best wishes

Merilyn Pedrick

Aldgate, South Australia



-------Original Message-------



From: Douglas Richardson

Date: 11/25/06 12:02:28

To:

Subject: Ducal kinsfolk: Arthur, Duke of Brittany's kinsman, Robert de Vitré



Dear Newsgroup ~



During the course of research for the book, Plantagenet Ancestry

(2004), I encountered an interesting charter issued by Arthur, Duke of

Brittany, the ill fated nephew of King John, in which Duke Arthur

referred to Robert de Vitré as his kinsman [Reference: J.H. Round,

Calendar of Documents Preserved in France 1 (1899): 473]. At the time,

I was unable to explain the kinship between the two men. I assumed

that the matter would be resolved at some future point.



Since that time, I've done additional research both on the Vitré

family, as well as on kinship relationships stated in charters before

1250. As I've indicated in recent posts, my analysis of pre-1250

charters indicates that acknowledged kinships in that time period

invariably fell within the 4th degree of kindred. As such, it would

appear that Duke Arthur and Robert de Vitré were almost certainly

blood related within the 4th degree. But how?



Reviewing Duke Arthur's ancestry, I find that his only Breton ancestry

(and thus his only likely connection to Robert de Vitré) consists of

paternal grandfather's parents, Alan of Brittany, and his wife, Bertha

of Brittany. From what is known of Bertha of Brittany's immediate

family, it is not likely that the Vitré connection comes through her.

As for Alan of Brittany, his parents, Stephen (or Etienne), Count of

Brittany, and his wife, Hawise, are known to have had a large family of

children, including one alleged daughter, Agnorie, wife of Oliver de

Dinan [see, for example, Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln, 2

(1984): 75 (sub Brittany)]. However, I elsewhere find it stated in

print that Moriarty's Notebooks, Volume 13, identifies the husband of

Agnorie of Brittany as Alan de Dinan, the brother of Oliver de Dinan.

To date, however, I've unable to find any contemporary source which

proves Agnorie's given name, or whether or not she married Oliver or

Alan de Dinan. Nor have I been able to consult Moriarty's Notebooks to

see what evidence he provided to substantiate his identification of

Alan de Dinan's wife.



Although other possibilities may exist, it seems a good bet that

Moriarty is correct that Alan de Dinan's wife was the daughter of Count

Stephen. My research indicates that Alan de Dinan and his wife were

the maternal grandparents of Robert de Vitré, the acknowledged kinsman

of Duke Arthur. If Alan de Dinan's wife was the daughter of Count

Stephen, then Duke Arthur and Robert de Vitré would be related in the

4th and 3rd degrees of kindred as shown below:



l. Stephen, Count of Brittany, died 1135.

2. Alan of Brittany, died 1146.

3. Conan IV, Duke of Brittany, died 1171.

4. Constance, Duchess of Brittany, died 1201, married Geoffrey, son of

King Henry II of England.

5. Arthur, Duke of Brittany, died 1203.



l. Stephen, Count of Brittany, died 1135.

2. [Agnorie?], married Alan de Dinan, died 1148.

3. Emma de Dinan, married Robert de Vitré.

4. Robert de Vitré, priest, died 1209.



Elsewhere, I find that Bibliographie Bretonne, 1 (1971): 539 (sub

Dinan) gives the name of the wife of Alan de Dinan as Murielle, not

Agnorie. If correct, and, if Moriarty has correctly placed Alan de

Dinan's wife as the daughter of Count Stephen, then the name of Count

Stephen's daughter would obviously be Muriel, not Agnorie. Another

good Breton resource, Bio-Bibliographie Bretonne, by René Kerviler

also discusses the life of Alan de Dinan. But this account doesn't

mention the name of Alan de Dinan's wife.



For interest's sake, I've provided a list below of the numerous 17th

Century New World immigrants who descend from Alan de Dinan (died

1148), whose wife is under discussion. Included on this list are two

newly identified immigrants with royal ancestry, namely Dorothy

(Beresford) Brodnax and Margaret (Touteville) Shepard.



Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, William Asfordby, Barbara Aubrey,

Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, John Baynard,

Marmaduke Beckwith, Dorothy Beresford, Richard & William Bernard, John

Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston,

Joseph Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George,

Giles & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen,

Elizabeth, Martha & Peter Bulkeley, Stephen Bull, Nathaniel Burrough,

Elizabeth Butler, Edward Carleton, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine,

Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, William Clopton, St.

Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane,

& Katherine Deighton, Anne Derehaugh, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,

Rowland Ellis, Agatha, Alice, Eleanor, George Elkington, Jane & Martha

Eltonhead, William Farrar, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete,

Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard, William Goddard, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye,

Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Edmund Hawes, Warham

Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Thomas James, Edmund Jennings, Edmund,

Edward, Richard, & Matthew Kempe, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah

Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane &

Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas

Lunsford, Simon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne,

Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Oliver Manwaring, Anne & Katherine Marbury,

Elizabeth Marshall, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need,

John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge,

Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry &

William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas Rudyard,

Elizabeth Saint John, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall,

Anthony Savage, William Skepper, Diane & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna

Somerset, John Stockman, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey,

Margaret Touteville, Jemima Waldegrave, John & Lawrence Washington,

Olive Welby, John West, Amy Willis, Thomas Wingfield, Mary Wolseley,

Hawte Wyatt, Margaret Wyatt, Thomas Yale.



Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah





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