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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-12 > 1134856751


From: "John McEwan" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup - exact haplotype match.
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 10:59:11 +1300
In-Reply-To: <43A45D38.6090107@hargray.com>


Dear Dale

I will have a try at answering this and also send you results off list.

I essentially followed the procedure outlined in
http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/howto.htm

I took the haplotypes below and compared them with the modal R1b cluster
haplotypes I obtained from the phase 3 37 STR cluster analysis.

The 3 haplotypes provided (Dal Riata Modal, JR, JFR) best matched the
R1bSTR47Scots cluster with 1, 1, and 4 mismatches respectively. The next
best cluster match was the overall R1b modal with 6, 6, and 9
mismatches. The mismatch with the R1bSTR47Scots haplotype was a 15
rather than a 16 at DYS456. There is a group with DYS456 =15 within
R1bSTR47Scots cluster but it is a minor fraction and appear to be mainly
related to the Campbell surname.

What would I conclude? Well the R1b STR clusters are rather fuzzy, but
this one is quite distinctive and I would suggest that JR and JFR are
likely members of this group. The close matches are comforting and not
entirely unusual. Many of the queries on the list are biased towards
people who do not "fit" well.

I don't want to reactivate the debate, but regards this clusters
properties and name I think a few comments are required. The first is
that its distribution has been crudely plotted (with caveats) at
http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/scotsr1b.htm

This is a plot of the frequency not absolute numbers, if absolute
numbers were used the center of highest density would be located in the
Scottish lowlands. However, it is also present throughout England at
moderate densities but less so in Wales and earlier work suggested that
those in England had more diversity (i.e. diverged earlier from the
MRCA). This suggests that the cluster originated or passed through
England on its way to Scotland. The evidence to date also suggests that
this cluster is very underrepresented in Ireland but I still have to
look through the TCD study to investigate this further.

This gets to the name, various fragments of this haplotype have been
called a number of names. One is Colla Uais (Mark McDonald), another is
Scots (Ken Nordtvedt), and now Dal Riata modal. I am not a great fan of
any actually but Scots seems to be most commonly used so I tend to stick
with that.

Hope this helps

Cheers

John McEwan




-----Original Message-----
From: Dale E. Reddick [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, 18 December 2005 7:47 a.m.
To:
Subject: [DNA] Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup - exact haplotype match.

Hi Folks,

The following concerns two members of the Reddick / r320 surname project

where I'm the Co-Admin. These results relate to two distant cousins
(paper trails exist) whose results are predicted by FTDNA to be R1b.

<snip>

Would someone please comment on the likelihood of an
exact match to a 'sub-clade' modal haplogroup by one participant in a
study. This is the 'Scottish' Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup found within
R1b. Participant J. R. matches that modal group perfectly.

Is this all that common? Has anyone else seen such exact participant
matches to modal haplogroups in other studies? Is this merely numbers
and chance or is there something else to be learned here?

Rob Livingston provided me with the Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup values.
He and several other individuals come close to matching up with these
two members of the Reddick / r320 surname project whose ancestry does
appear to be Scottish.



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