GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-12 > 1134909482


From: "Daniel Jenkins" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Re: Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 12:38:02 +0000
In-Reply-To: <000001c603a3$931187b0$78b698de@BigMem2>


John and Robert,

I am following this thread closely as I have ordered my Uncle Dan
Gallagher's DNA testing. I have first 12 markers and await next 25. I
noticed that his first 12 is very close to #38812 John Livingston with his
alleles in order : 13-25-14-11-11-13-12-12-12-13-14-29 and he looks to be
R1b. So far he has 234 exact matches with different names including a lot of
Mc . versions of Mac . names. His family was from Londonderry since 1800 and
I am trying to find deeper origins. In regards to 'The Kurgan Hypothesis" I
have found my Jenkins R1a1 ancestors followed same pathway to land at Kent,
England by maybe 449 with Jutes. My paper trail is proven to mid 1500s.
Since I am not the scientist that many of you are and incapable of tossing
the numbers , I appreciate all your efforts . It is very helpful to us .
Thanks.

Dan Jenkins


>From: "John McEwan" <>
>Reply-To:
>To:
>Subject: RE: [DNA] Re: Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005
>20:20:50 +1300
>
>Dear Robert
>
>Thanks very much for your cogently argued hypothesis and supporting
>evidence. I will be honest, I save all my key e-mails but the import of
>your previous one did not really strike me until now. It may have been
>when I was overseas. In fact I am sure I just got a link to the
>Livingston Mclea site.
>
>I think you are on to something and I have been fumbling around with a
>different aspect of the same phenomena. If I understand you correctly,
>what you are implying is the "pre scots" haplotype emerged from central
>Europe and moved to England then to Scotland where it became a major
>regional haplotype cluster.
>
>Now I have read a little pre-history and this sounds very like part of,
>or a variant of, the "Kurgan hypothesis" and indo-european language
>(Gaelic in this case) spread along with chambered burials, horses and
>pastoralism (circa ~5000 years bp) some time after agriculture
>techniques spread. Yes, I have a copy of JP Mallory!
>
>To recap my work (all available on www.geocities.com/mcewanjc ):
>* In April I examined selected surnames from Ireland Scotland and
>England in order to probe the origin of Dal Riadic surnames. The results
>of this simple phase one analysis were clear. Dal Riadic surnames were
>closer to Irish than "Britonic" based on DNA haplotypes. This suggests
>but does not prove an Irish origin.
>* A phase 1 cluster analysis was also done on the data (25 STR markers)
>and this identified that the Irish R1b cluster was present a higher
>level in Irish (26%) than dal riadic (19%) than scots Britonic Celt
>(13%) surnames. In contrast the Scots R1b cluster was low in Irish (0%)
>modest in dal riadic surnames (5%) and high in scots Britonic celt
>surnames (17%). These differences were significant.
>* I actually have just today tried to extract out of the new Irish Moore
>et al paper the % of the Scots cluster in Ireland. The figure was ~5%
>but like your 12 marker haplotype a few assumptions had to be made.
>See www.geocites.com/mcewanj/clustersummary.htm
>* I then did a phase 2 analysis in June using R1b data from Ysearch and
>37 STR markers and this again identified the Scots and Irish clusters
>but also several other groups that subsequently developed into the
>Frisian R1b cluster. However, my emphasis was on the Scots cluster.
>See www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/phase2.htm
>* Then I got myself into really hot water using the wrong mutation rate,
>but aside from the estimated dates you will see the same general
>conclusion was reached that you have proposed. The so called Laginian
>Dumnonii hypothesis had them rolling in the isles :-(
>www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/originr1bkn.htm
>
>I have still not revised it mainly to remind myself to slow down and
>doublecheck things and partly because estimating dates is fraught.
>
>The central observations were: the distribution of the Scots cluster was
>a trail leading from southern England, and was also present on the
>continent, older haplotypes were in England and the continent suggested
>that the cluster had come into England (invader) or originated in
>southern England (adopter) and traversed slowly up the country
>(excluding Wales). The absolute size of the movement also strongly
>suggested and event prior to the Roman invasion.
>
>The key problem was dates. The dates I obtained were ~300BC, others
>thought and compellingly argued they were 3X older (circa 5500yrs BC).
>In reality great uncertainty exists. This has led to me going back and
>doing a "global" phase 3 analysis which I am still summarising some 6
>months later, but there are only 2 possibilities consistent with the
>observations:
>a) the Scots cluster are the remnants of the first native British
>b) they are associated with either the introduction of agriculture or
>some new technology (horses, bronze or iron ).... In the latter case
>they could have been early adopters in southern UK that subsequently
>spread. I personally think the event has to do with agriculture in some
>way because the imprint is through the best arable land in the UK.
>
>The current pattern observed (Wales low, Ireland low, England moderate,
>Scotland high) is a consequence of subsequent events in particular the
>Roman invasion of Britain, then the Angles, Saxons, and Normans all
>directly or indirectly reducing the fraction of the prior inhabitants in
>England as a proportion of the total population.
>
>www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/scotsr1b.htm
>
>This gets back to what needs to be done to resolve it? Well your summary
>helps. If I ever get finished I can use the phase 3 analysis to directly
>answer some questions raised from my previous analyses, but dates are
>still a problem and have to be tackled at some point. Jim Wilson and
>David Faux's SNPs help because they reduce the noise level and
>uncertainty inherent in working with R1b.
>
>Well this e-mail will stir up the hornets
>
>Cheers
>
>John McEwan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>==============================
>Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the
>areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months.
>Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx
>

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

This thread: