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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-12 > 1134920906


From: "Andrew and Inge" <>
Subject: Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 16:48:26 +0100


Hi John, Rob

Fascinating!

A couple of remarks:-

I am interested to see you 2 close watchers of the Colla/Scots/Dal-Riata
modal talking now about immigrations from Europe, and low percentages in
Ireland, while others with a lot of knowledge are still talking as though it
is well known that this haplotype is found in Northern Ireland. I hope the
data now starting to come into the public domain about Irish DNA will
clarify!

On the other hand, for the time being the cluster still seems to be most
well observed in Western Scotland around Argyll if I interpret things
correctly? In fact - to play devil's advocate - the second most likely
hypothesis seems to be that it is not a cluster at all, but an illusion
caused by convergence, as it is very close to WAMH. In other words, if the
implications of a "short haplotype" search are extendable to more markers,
meaning that there is no regional clustering to go with the DNA clustering,
what would be left? I tend to think however that there is a cluster - both
by region and by haplotype - even if some people who seem to be in it might
theoretically be there by random convergence.

Here is an hypothesis: in areas where it is found in smaller percentages,
random convergence from WAMH like haplotypes might be enough to explain it.
But in Scotland?

The whole question is rather important to the genealogy of Pennsylvania
Livingstons, many of whom seem to descend from a Swiss-German family of
Liebensteins. They still believe that somewhere in the past these were
Livingstons, though it is claimed that they have been traced back to Zurich
in the 1500s. What has kept us thinking it likely is that Scottish
Livingstons are amongst their best matches, and historically the fact that
they lived in a parish where "Marian exiles" may well have come from
Scotland in that century.

Best Regards
Andrew


From: "John McEwan" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Re: Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 20:20:50 +1300
In-Reply-To: <00cd01c60390$9065c340$>


Dear Robert

Thanks very much for your cogently argued hypothesis and supporting
evidence.

[snip]

The central observations were: the distribution of the Scots cluster was
a trail leading from southern England, and was also present on the
continent, older haplotypes were in England and the continent suggested
that the cluster had come into England (invader) or originated in
southern England (adopter) and traversed slowly up the country
(excluding Wales). The absolute size of the movement also strongly
suggested and event prior to the Roman invasion.

[snip]

Well this e-mail will stir up the hornets

From: "Robert Livingston" <>
Subject: Re: Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 21:04:37 -0800


Hi John,
I was pleased to see your "crudely plotted" Scots dna cluster distribution
map. I didn't think it was so crude actually!

[snip]

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