Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-07 > 1246455686

From: "Richard Stevens" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA]OurEuropeangeographicalblocksforlactosetoleranceonChromosome 2
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:41:26 -0400
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

I believe the Shennan and Edinborough paper, "Prehistoric population
history: from the Late Glacial to the Late Neolithic in Central and Northern
Europe", has been discussed on this list before. It studied "the history of
population fluctuations from the Mesolithic to the late Neolithic for three
countries in central and northern Europe: Germany, Poland and Denmark" and
found that the Mesolithic population level was "extremely low".

"That the appearance of the LBK marked a major population
increase in the areas where it is found is well established.
What the data make clear is the extremely low levels of Me-
solithic population prior to this arrival; the implication being
that existing hunter-gatherer populations only made a signifi-
cant contribution demographically, genetically and culturally
to the extent that they were incorporated into the advancing
LBK demographic wave.
However, the most significant result, we would argue, is the
demonstration of the drastic demographic decline at the end of
the LBK and the long subsequent period of relatively low pop-
ulation levels. Explaining the reasons for this now becomes
a major issue. The decline suggested here on the basis of the
radiocarbon evidence also fits in with an increasing number
of indications from other sources that far from being the foun-
dation of the subsequent Neolithic across large parts of central,
northern and northwestern Europe, in some respects at least it
actually left little trace. Thus, the recent ancient DNA study of
LBK samples (Haak et al., 2005) suggested that the most fre-
quent mtDNA variant was one which is extremely rare in the
region in modern populations. Archaeobotanical studies are
also making it increasingly apparent that the LBK crop exploi-
tation system was an unusual one which did not have any de-
scendants (Coward et al., unpublished paper; Bakels, in press)."

And a few paragraphs earlier:

"The different demographic patterns charac-
terising the three regions in the centuries after 3000 BC, and
all associated with the transition to Corded Ware and related cul-
tures, are also striking. In Denmark there appears to be a dip fol-
lowed by a rise to previous levels; in Poland there is a general
decline and in Germany no sign of any change at all until the
marked dip and rise in the middle of the third millennium (cf.
Furholt, 2003; Müller, 2003 for suggestions of continuity from
the late Neolithic to the Corded Ware in Germany), which, per-
haps significantly, corresponds to the beginning of the Bell
Beaker phase."

I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Wilson, but it seems to me he is
behind the curve on this issue. Unless you are arguing that he is an
infallible authority when speaking ex cathedra, quoting him fitting S116
into a worn-out paradigm (i.e., Iberia as the R1b Ice Age Refuge) when he
has not involved himself in this debate carries little weight.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Felix" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 23:27
Subject: Re: [DNA]
OurEuropeangeographicalblocksforlactosetoleranceonChromosome 2

There is no evidence of massive death from disease wiping out the early
people of Europe and even in the Americas and Australia there are remnant
populations and significant dna from these groups that live on. Who are you
talking about?

There are no geneticists supporting the view of R1b sweeping out of the
east. Here is the president of Ethnoancestry James Wilson
( )
a respected geneticist description of S116 aka P312 from their website:
"S116: An R1b SNP - S116 represents a very recently discovered group which
appears to define descendants of the Iberian glacial refuge"

If geneticists believed R1b swept across Europe this would have been big
news. The people of western Europe were the last Hunter Gatherers unless you
believe they disappeared into thin air.

More reliable (molecular clock in a realistic time frame) mtdna studies do
not support this view as well. They show origins and expansion out of Iberia
(V some subclades of H1 and H3)

Mexico DNA Project Admin.

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